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Author Topic: Pre oiling engine  (Read 554 times)

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Offline tow hook

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2020, 11:05:51 AM »
pump was o.e.  i have a spare engine, i pulled that oil pump gear and swaped it over to mine.


 still no psi. i have veriflyed all the oil plugs exp for the one under the from cover. oil galley in the rear is 3/4 quart full. no psi on the gauge ( thats were i'm put the oil in the block ) no oil in the valve train ( i have the side cover off so i can see that it's dry )

thoughts ?

Offline Bruce_W

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2020, 11:59:46 AM »
  This is an F-head, correct? Not that it matters. You will not see any oil in the exhaust valve chamber until the engine starts. Oil is not delivered there, it is only splashed/sprayed. The intake valve train on top of the head is pressure oiled. When you get the oiling system to work, you should see oil up there. If you were able to build any pressure at all with your oil can, you might get some to go upstairs. I donít know. If the oil is being dumped somewhere or for whatever reason it is easier for the oil to go somewhere rather than upstairs, thatís where it will go. At this point, it might be worthwhile to install a pump with no gear and spin it up as you have with Chevys in the past. If that doesnít make any pressure, the oil is certainly being dumped somewhere. Or the pump is getting air rather than oil.  Just a thought. BW
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 12:03:14 PM by Bruce_W »
Until We Jeep Again...........

Offline tow hook

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2020, 11:23:34 AM »
  This is an F-head, correct? Not that it matters. You will not see any oil in the exhaust valve chamber until the engine starts. Oil is not delivered there, it is only splashed/sprayed. The intake valve train on top of the head is pressure oiled. When you get the oiling system to work, you should see oil up there. If you were able to build any pressure at all with your oil can, you might get some to go upstairs. I donít know. If the oil is being dumped somewhere or for whatever reason it is easier for the oil to go somewhere rather than upstairs, thatís where it will go. At this point, it might be worthwhile to install a pump with no gear and spin it up as you have with Chevys in the past. If that doesnít make any pressure, the oil is certainly being dumped somewhere. Or the pump is getting air rather than oil.  Just a thought. BW

yes, it's a f head. i dropped the pan, and can confirm that the oil plugs are in the bottom end of the block ( by the oil pump ) and the out side plugs are in as well.( no oil leaks)  i can't confirm the front oil plug behind the timing cover. i'm not quite ready to pull that apart to check just yet. i do have a spare engine / oil pump.( i used that spare pump gear to replace the broken gear on the pump that just broke)  thats a great idea ! :D  use the spare pump with no gear, and pump oil with a drill. gotta get the spare pump sealed up, and find a screw driver long enough to put in the drill and see what ticks !!!!

 thanks

Offline Bruce_W

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2020, 08:01:05 PM »
  There seems to be a lot of this going around lately. A person on the CJ2APage forum was fighting the same thing, and now Tom seems to be having the same trouble.
  The guy on the CJ2A page found that his timing gear oil spray nozzle was not installed. This is not the first I've heard of this over the years, as well as internal oil galley plugs being left out.
  After all you've done, and you've verified that the internal plugs are in place (those you can see with the pan removed, anyway) I would say that it's about time to pull the front cover and look for that nozzle. If you still have the pan off, you could inject some oil into the main galley and see if it comes gushing out of the front cover.
  These are very simple oiling systems and this is becoming a very common problem, and the finding and the solution are almost always the same.  BW
Until We Jeep Again...........

Offline aboyandhisdog

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2020, 08:55:00 PM »
BW, I spoke to my engine builder today and he said that, although it's a long shot, there would be a remote possibility that the oil galley plug(s) could have been left out.  Can you tell me what this means and why would they have been removed in the first place?  I mean, the engine worked great when I took it to him.  Why would he have removed said plugs?

Now then, I have never heard of a timing gear spray nozzle.  I had my timing gear cover off once and never saw anything that remotely looked like a nozzle.  Just the hole in the cover where the oil hose attaches.  There is supposed to be some kind of a nozzle there?  How would that affect oil pressure?
Tom


Offline Rus Curtis

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2020, 09:36:13 PM »
Wow! Two different threads running with similar issues!  Not a good week for oil pressure!

There is some good info on the 3B Page in the Engine Rebuild article. There is an image showing where to look for the nozzle (it should be in the same spot on the L-head since it needs to squirt directly at where  the gears mesh):

https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild7.html

And also, check the oil float (that round flat pickup hanging down into the oil pan. It should have a gasket so it can pull the oil up and into the gallery to the pump.

The plugs, IIRC, look the same inside and out (location of some of those holes inside):
https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild2.html

Location of two external plugs on driver's side:
https://cj3b.info/Photos/Tech/HurricaneSideGrayscale.JPG

Also some good images here:
https://www.cj3apage.com/index/My_1950/rebuilding_the_l134.htm

Not sure if this will help but a close look to verify some things will help a lot to eliminate a few things.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 09:37:44 PM by Rus Curtis »
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline aboyandhisdog

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2020, 09:52:41 PM »
Good stuff, Rus.  Thank you.  I was hoping to avoid pulling the pan, but it is looking like I may have to do that next. 
Tom


Offline Bruce_W

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2020, 10:55:05 PM »
BW, I spoke to my engine builder today and he said that, although it's a long shot, there would be a remote possibility that the oil galley plug(s) could have been left out.  Can you tell me what this means and why would they have been removed in the first place?  I mean, the engine worked great when I took it to him.  Why would he have removed said plugs?

Now then, I have never heard of a timing gear spray nozzle.  I had my timing gear cover off once and never saw anything that remotely looked like a nozzle.  Just the hole in the cover where the oil hose attaches.  There is supposed to be some kind of a nozzle there?  How would that affect oil pressure?

  The oil galley plugs are always removed from a block in the re-build (another example of the difference between a rebuild and an overhaul) process so that the galley passages can be cleaned out.
  Installation of the timing gear oil jet (nozzle) is covered on page 49, paragraph D-84, in the Service Manual for Universal Jeep Vehicles. The oil jet can be seen in the picture of the timing gears on page 48, although if you didn't know it was there, you wouldn't recognize it.  You do have a service manual, don't you? :)
  The nozzle, or jet, is installed in the front end of the main oil galley, and if left out, will dump all the oil from the pump into the front cover and back into the oil pan. Oil returned from the oil filter is surely a source of lube for the timing gears, but it is a supplemental source, not the primary one. The timing gears can live without it, as the old practice of blocking or removing the oil filter shows. The oil jet is the primary source of oil to the timing gears. 

  BW
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 10:58:58 PM by Bruce_W »
Until We Jeep Again...........

Offline aboyandhisdog

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2020, 11:29:08 AM »
Thanks, BW.  Good explanation, helps a lot!  I guess I did know about that timing gear oil jet - the word "nozzle" threw me off a bit.  As for the galley plugs, I learned something new today!
Tom


Offline aboyandhisdog

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2020, 02:19:36 PM »
The "no oil pressure" mystery has been solved.  The engine builder did, in fact, leave out one galley plug.  Fortunately no dire consequences apparent, as she is purring like a kitten.  Supposed to warm up in a day or two so I can get it out on the road for the maiden voyage.  Thanks to everybody who helped with this.

Offline Rus Curtis

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2020, 03:44:55 PM »
Success!
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline tow hook

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2020, 02:24:55 PM »
BW, I spoke to my engine builder today and he said that, although it's a long shot, there would be a remote possibility that the oil galley plug(s) could have been left out.  Can you tell me what this means and why would they have been removed in the first place?  I mean, the engine worked great when I took it to him.  Why would he have removed said plugs?

Now then, I have never heard of a timing gear spray nozzle.  I had my timing gear cover off once and never saw anything that remotely looked like a nozzle.  Just the hole in the cover where the oil hose attaches.  There is supposed to be some kind of a nozzle there?  How would that affect oil pressure?

yes, i have pulled the oil pan, and other parts to verify the oil plugs are in, even the front one behind the motor mount plate. they reduced the spray nozzle for the timing gears to help build oil psi

Offline tow hook

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2020, 02:40:51 PM »
Wow! Two different threads running with similar issues!  Not a good week for oil pressure!

There is some good info on the 3B Page in the Engine Rebuild article. There is an image showing where to look for the nozzle (it should be in the same spot on the L-head since it needs to squirt directly at where  the gears mesh):

https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild7.html

And also, check the oil float (that round flat pickup hanging down into the oil pan. It should have a gasket so it can pull the oil up and into the gallery to the pump.

The plugs, IIRC, look the same inside and out (location of some of those holes inside):
https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild2.html

Location of two external plugs on driver's side:
https://cj3b.info/Photos/Tech/HurricaneSideGrayscale.JPG

Also some good images here:
https://www.cj3apage.com/index/My_1950/rebuilding_the_l134.htm

Not sure if this will help but a close look to verify some things will help a lot to eliminate a few things.

were to start.. :o

 i swapped pumps ( i have a spare engine on a stand to steal parts from ) the spare pump has no drive gear ( broke the org gear , so i stole for the org pump :'( ) with the spare pump in and no gear i drive it with a drill. ( rev is the direction i want to go  ? )  i used a hand oil pump and put oil in the rear galley were the oil psi gauge plugs in, poured oil in to the filter. ran the drill for 30 seconds natta.  i dropped the pan and checked for oil plugs, both are there in the bottom near the pick up. pull the fuel pump, and oil line that hides behind the fuel pump. oil is coming out the hose from the filter. pulled the brass 90 and verified the plug in the front of the block.

so on a crazy note, i put shop air 40 psi in the rear galley, air went down threw the pump an saw the pump turn,( have the side cover off ) then herd the air gurgle in to the oil pan  :( so then i put oil in the rear galley and put 30 psi of shop air in the galley ( had the drill in the pump so it didn't turn, air still went down to the oil pan and gurgled again.

so in the need for knowledge of how this works ! i put air the spare block, same hole 40psi. ( had the oil pump spot covered with tape ) pushed the air in, air did not go to the pump !  :o   it was in side the block some were, got brake cleaner, put it in the oil galley, and added air. it came out the rear crank main.

now what ? pull the bottom end ? :'(

Offline tow hook

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2020, 02:42:49 PM »
The "no oil pressure" mystery has been solved.  The engine builder did, in fact, leave out one galley plug.  Fortunately no dire consequences apparent, as she is purring like a kitten.  Supposed to warm up in a day or two so I can get it out on the road for the maiden voyage.  Thanks to everybody who helped with this.

congrats :)    which one did he leave out ? if you know by chance ?

Offline aboyandhisdog

Re: Pre oiling engine
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2020, 03:32:42 PM »
If I remember correctly, he said it was the one that is a bit harder to see.  Hope this makes sense.
Tom