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Offline Frank

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2011, 11:59:40 AM »
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Do you like the Novak product better than the corn header grease? �I'm just trying to find the most economical product �;)

Corn Head Grease,

Now I have never seen or used the John Deere Grease, if it flows and stays put in this less then oil tight power transmission device then it would be economical, What you have to consider rather then the cost of the grease itself is how well it works in the application it is used in, and how long,

Off the top of my head I believe the Corn head grease is a polyeura or plastic grease for lack of a better term,

The Novak product is Sodium based grease, a rarely seen and seldom used grease as I have seen it described, Incompatible with any other grease, The challenge to find the best grease for this frt axle is that it needs to lubricate a wheel joint, trunnion bearings and wheel bearings,

When researching about this Unique grease used by Jeep and other manufactures it rather easy to see why it was used, first and foremost as mention it is used in areas that are prone to leakage, and in this case with this axle a slight discharge to coat and protect the ball is desired,
It is known to do well in areas that are subjected to severe shock and pounding, have excellent adhesion properties, and where extended service intervals can be obtained,
In this closed knuckle application 30-40 year longevity is common, Wheel hub included, basically limited to the life span of the seals,

This is Economical, so economical that with the known Planned Obsolescence that is common place in the auto trade, your not likely to know about it, You see it was a Toyota dealership that told me this grease was "Private". I was interested to find out why, Now I knew that Domestic axles of this design had been used in years past so began looking in old books about the subject of lubrication , and heres the run down on that, Dana says to use 140 W oil but to follow individual manufactures suggestions,

Ford merely says to use 1/2 a pint of the" Proper Lube"  In the Same Book Dodge Says to use "Short Fiber grease" and #2 Multipurpose grease,
International says a "Viscous Chassis lubricant" GMC only says to fill the knuckle with a lubricant for this purpose,

So While Toyota said "Private" and Domestic folks gave me the run around, Jeep however described the base, and the grades used,


Now it has been quite a challenge to find information about this goop used some 70 years ago a great source of information with all sorts of tests and studies was done in the mid 1980,s by the Rail Road and the Texaco oil company, this goop is used in locomotive traction gear motors,

Now I first started to present this information on-line to Toyota Folks that have Mis-diagnosed this proprietary goop as axle seal failure, lets just say that has not gone over so well,

One may wonder how a simple thing such as grease could be so overlooked,


Offline Frank

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2011, 12:33:22 PM »
Okay,

I have yet to go thru a DANA 25 and document the procedure, But I am doing up a Toyota axle for a "Mudder" Rig,

http://www.backwoodsgoopinfo.com/goopBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39&p=274


Offline athawk11

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2011, 09:57:31 PM »
Hi Frank.

Thanks for the information and the photos. �I know this is a long shot, but can you tell from my photo if I have plain old grease or a #0 level Novak lube? �I am just not sure.

Tim

2-1949 CJ3As
1-1946 CJ2A

Offline Frank

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2011, 10:46:51 PM »
Quote
Hi Frank.

Thanks for the information and the photos. �I know this is a long shot, but can you tell from my photo if I have plain old grease or a #0 level Novak lube? �I am just not sure.

Tim



Your very welcome, It has the appearance of #1 grade grease, So Not regular grease, which is #2 �

It is rather easy to identify grades of grease when you have a known sample to compare, So if you where to go buy a Regular #2 grease and what you have there is "Softer" you can be sure its #1 grade,

Which it sure looks like, but the finger in the grease test is needed to confirm,,

Here is a picture of the grease grades laid out, from #000 to #2 �

Typical CV joint grease in the pouch is #1 grade and looks like what you have there,
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 10:54:11 PM by Frank »

Offline macrisel

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 11:26:19 AM »
Wow!  Great info on the grease!  Looks like I will break down and buy the Novak product after all.  I had heard about the corn head grease and it was going to be more convinient to buy as there is a dealership close to my house.. ::)

Thanks for posting the photos of the different grades of grease!

Offline Frank

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 12:34:21 PM »
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Wow! �Great info on the grease! �Looks like I will break down and buy the Novak product after all. �I had heard about the corn head grease and it was going to be more convinient to buy as there is a dealership close to my house.. ::)

Thanks for posting the photos of the different grades of grease!


No problem, I have a lot of grease info, been studying it for over 2 years, as well as this enclosed axle design, and its very nice to present this information and have it be well received,


Offline Frank

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2011, 12:51:15 PM »
http://www.backwoodsgoopinfo.com/goopBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39

Okay Just finished up the overhaul, As soon as I find a neat ol Jeep to do up I will  and document the procedure, however more things are the same then is different on these axles,

I do have a 1942 Chevy 1 1/2 Ton Rig to restore, So will get that going one of these days,


Offline Frank

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 12:21:47 PM »
Neat Bob,

Well its Toyota sales that I am after, plain and simple, Recommend a incompatible and incorrect grade of grease in their books,

2 things I have found out about this old school Jeep grease that helps in the things you mention, #1 it absorbs moisture, #2 used in areas that are subjected to severe shocking and pounding,
That causes the brinnelling , or more so shock loading,

Modern CV joint grease is #1 grade, or thinner, and Modern CV joint lube is a contradiction of terms, Frank Rzeppa designed the CV joint in the 20,s for submarines, I would imagine he used a modern CV joint lube, that flowed, or was #1 or thinner,

1920 they had modern CV joint lube,

What is your recommendations in your Book ? Do you specify the same lube in the wheel hub ? a "Modern CV joint lube will work its way thru the spindle and potentially mix with the Wheel bearing grease, Which if different can cause problems,

While I may be blunt but CV joint and or wheel joint lube is not "Modern" I forget the name right off hand of the inventor of the first enclosed steering axle but in his patent he mentioned that his invention allowed for a "properly lubed" Wheel joint, Which @ best would be a "Modern Oil"..

Your term "Modern CV joint lube" is a contradiction, Modern Mercedes Benz and BMW have used oil in CV joints, And Ol Frank back in the 20's used a modern lube as well,

While you do not get caught up in the lube deal for these axles, I do, The worlds leading auto manufacture has taken this design, replicated it, used the same goop, and then the sales company of this automobile writes a book and dupes a entire generation about something as silly as grease,

And it would seem that the leading tech writers of these older rigs have not researched or understand the design as well as the Toyota engineers that replicated this axle in the early 1950.s

This is partially to blame on some "White Propaganda" in the Civilian Jeep books, I can tell by what Toyota changed, and Improved upon if you will what Old Man Willies was up to, back in the day, with his machine built for war,

#0 or #1 in the wheel hub as well, not #2 grade, which is the White propaganda of which I speak,

Frank

Offline rocketeer

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 05:21:35 PM »
What many people loose sight of with these old jeep front axles is that the lubricant is not simply a grease for the joint, it is supposed to be light enough that the rotation of the axles will sling it up to the upper kingpin. Stuffing everything with regular #2 or heavier grease will not accomplish that. Oh sure, the seals won't leak but the upper kingpin won't get lubed either. Too much trying to reinvent the wheel, use what the factory specified; #0 (Winter), #1 (Summer).

Larry

Offline Frank

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Re: Front axles
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 03:30:08 PM »
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What many people loose sight of with these old jeep front axles is that the lubricant is not simply a grease for the joint, it is supposed to be light enough that the rotation of the axles will sling it up to the upper kingpin. Stuffing everything with regular #2 or heavier grease will not accomplish that. Oh sure, the seals won't leak but the upper kingpin won't get lubed either. Too much trying to reinvent the wheel, use what the factory specified; #0 (Winter), #1 (Summer).

Larry


Yes Larry, Actually the common failure is the upper trunnion bearing, from #1 incorrect grease and #2 not operating it in 4wd occasionally,  As far as #0 or #1 depending on temp,

It certianly does not have to be changed out every other season, More so #1 or #0 depending on application, Full or part time, usage, condition of the axle, I prefer the #0 because it simply has more oil in it, and that provides the lubrication,,