My cj3A

[Medsker51]

So I just picked this up last week. From my research the "451" on the plaque means it is a 1951. The engine number is "4LR190690" I am sure I will have many, many questions for the forum and am glad I found it.

My first question is what is up with the tail lights. They don't currently work so I don't know which is brake lights/running lights/turn signals/etc. The three round ones look stock but the oval one may or may not be. It's hard to tell from the picture but the oval one sticks out a couple of inches. I haven't seen any other pics of one like it on the internet.

Thanks, Medsker

[garage gnome]

First off, welcome to the site!

Yes, that is indeed a 1951 with that VIN. Your engine is a factory replacement if I'm not mistaken.

None of those tail lights are stock. There is only supposed to be one on the drivers side near the bottom.

[garage gnome]

Info on the stock tail lights

http://www.cj3a.info/tech/taillight.html

And here is the correct location. The oval one probably uses the original mounting holes. I added the second non lit one to mine so I have turn signals.

[athawk11]

Hi Medsker,
Welcome aboard. Looks like a very nice 3A.

The tail lamps look nicely done, but unless there was a factory option I'm not aware of, they are not what your Willys started with.

The factory standard offering would have been one protruding lamp mounted close to the current location of your oval lamp.� There was a dual tail lamp option that added another protruding lamp to the passenger side.

Tim

[athawk11]

When troubleshooting the lamps, the first couple things I would do is install new bulbs and check to see if the two wires are connected to the brake switch mounted at the front of the master cylinder.� If the wires are connected, check to see if one lead heads back to the lamps and is connected to at least one lamp.� The other lead would normally be attached to the main light switch where it will get its power.

If this curcuit looks complete, but you still have no brake lights, the brake switch on the front of the master cylinder may need to be replaced.�

If a fuse was added to your electrical system, you might check to see if the fuse needs to be replaced.

Again, just some starting points.

Good luck.

Tim

[bretto]

Welcome,
Nice find, I thought I remembered seeing that 3A on eWillys and KSL.� So where in Utah are you?� I'm in Orem, it'd be nice to come check it out.
Brett

[F Bill]

Beautiful jeep. I'm glad you found us!

I am pretty certain you have a totally independent turn signal/four way flasher setup on that jeep. Modern vehicles use the same filament for the turn signals and brake lights, but you have an aftermarket setup that was installed when signals became mandatory to pass inspection.

You should have a power "in" to the switch, then either two or four power "outs" to run the left and right signals. Might also have a ground wire too.

I would bet the lollipop lights in your fenders have a power wire and aground wire , and only function as turn signals.
Which two rear lights are wired the same way is anyone's guess, I would bet the oval light and the lower light opposite it.

Your front small bulbs should function as parking lights only. They also are a single filament bulb, and their power lead eventually ends up at the headlight switch.

The other two rear lights should be dual filament bulbs, one for tail light and one from brake lights.� The dimmer of the two filaments is connected to the tail light circuit, the brighter of the two goes to your brake light circuit.

Here's a wiring diagram for a 2A, the 3A is similar.� Check out all the links on this thread, you might find one of the suggested diagrams will work for you.

http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/electrical-wiring-and-harness_topic15283.html

Your lights, while vintage, may be in poor shape inside. You have to decide whether you want to go back to original or if you prefer those nice big lights in todays' traffic. If it were my jeep and a daily driver, I'd be putting in modern led equivalents to what you have there.. You can find them at many truck supply places, Ebay, and even your local parts store. (Shop around, prices vary greatly)� If you do stick with what you have, spraying the inside of the lights with silver or white paint will get them as bright as possible.�

[Medsker51]

Thanks for all of the ideas. I was wondering if the tail lights were aftermarket. I really like the look of the inset ones. I may try to take all of them off but the top two. I am looking more for what I like rather than going back to complete stock.

I was under it last night and couldn't believe how rusted out it was under there. I was debating on a new tub and now think I will for sure. If I'm getting a new tub I think I will wire it for 12v.

I also want to replace the tires with something that doesn't need a tube. A nail in a regular tire is easily fixable in the middle of no where and a tube can be but I can't even imagine how hard that would be.

One last question. What is spot like looking thing in the middle of the headlight? It is only on the passenger side. The tail light have the same spot looking thing.

I'm actually from California now but am originally from Pleasant View up north from Ogden. I'm a member of www.rme4x4.com and they mentioned it to me. It is the one that was on KSL.

Those are great wiring schematics. They should really help with the electrical demons.

Thanks again guys

[F Bill]

That's an old school headlight, with a focusing lens in the middle. Prehistoric optics.....but someone building an old school jeep might be interested in it.

I'm surprised you say the tub is rotten.....it looks very nice in pictures.

If you are going thru all the trouble of replacing the tub and rewiring for 12 volt, you will want to go for a new turn signal switch and only two rear lights. 

I'd think long and hard about blasting that good looking jeep apart before I got it drivable and enjoyed it some the way it is.
Here's another post to look at:

http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1342019584

Actually reading of ALL the FAQ posts here and on the 2A page should be mandatory for a new jeep owner. Don't forget the left hand studs on some wheels, supposed to be the left wheels but.......occasionally they are on the other side too.
http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1371395327

[Medsker51]

It is really clean on the top but the bottom half is gone. Especially around the body mounts. Only half of them are there. I will probably drive it around for a while...at least until I get all of the parts here. The only reason I bought this (other than it is cool) was to have something to work on. I'm retired and extremely bored. I figure putting a new body will take a long time and I don't have the skills to fix all of the rust. I haven't done bodywork for 25 years and even then it was only for a short time. Here is a shot of just one section. It is all like this or worse. This is just the only pic that turned out.

I'm glad you said something about the left hand threads. I just checked and they are left hand. I'm sure I would have broke a stud without the info.

[F Bill]

A new hat channel kit, some front floor patching, and a good welder and that can be fixed with a little (well a lot) time. Whatever you do, don't ruin or toss that tub when you get a new one, someone could save that one.

The new tubs are still a bunch of work, and not cheap. But, if you want a fast restoration they are getting much better than they used to be, and you can get a really good looking jeep with one with little bodywork needed.

[Medsker51]

So how would you go about fixing it? Pull the tub, flip it upside down and throw it on some sawhorses? Most of the work is on the bottom so I would want it upside down. Can someone with no experience but a basic mechanical knowledge even do something like this? It seems like one would need a lot more skill to repair the tub as opposed to replacing it. I have all of the tools, welder, etc. I'm actually going to take a welding class this summer which will help.

It looks like the tub is double walled. If you look at the rear of the rust pic I posted you can see the panel pulling away and another panel underneath it. Is it doubled walled or am I seeing something else there?

[1955CJ-5]

I had no welder and no body experience when I started mine....so yes it can be done.

I think if you browse through the first 8 or 10 threads in the Your Stock Jeep Project forum (this forum) you will see some interesting projects and several different approaches to making repairs...

[Ryan_M]

Nice find. My '51 3A is serial # 28433 making it only 63 Jeeps older than yours! Very cool.

Keep us updated on your progress. I'd love to see you tackle that tub. From what I've seen from other projects here it is certainly doable, even for a novice. I'll be diving in to one of my own soon enough.

[F Bill]

So how would you go about fixing it? Pull the tub, flip it upside down and throw it on some sawhorses? Most of the work is on the bottom so I would want it upside down. Can someone with no experience but a basic mechanical knowledge even do something like this? It seems like one would need a lot more skill to repair the tub as opposed to replacing it. I have all of the tools, welder, etc. I'm actually going to take a welding class this summer which will help.

It looks like the tub is double walled. If you look at the rear of the rust pic I posted you can see the panel pulling away and another panel underneath it. Is it doubled walled or am I seeing something else there?

The floor is single thickness, one stamping goes from the riser behind the seats to the dash/firewall panel under the pedals. Most of the time the transmission hump is still good, so you can get away with flat patches, either bought or make your own.  There is a lip along the tub side that spot welds.

Yes, tub off is the way to repair this. I got a tub off this morning in 5 minutes, but it had NO floors whatsoever. Yours will take a bit longer. Hardest part is pulling the steering wheel. Search for threads on that, too as too much force in the wrong spot will ruin your steering shaft and wheel.

Depending on how bad the floor is, you might need to surgically remove all the spot welds that hold the toolbox on the right floor, then repair the floor under it and finally reinstall the toolbox. You may also need a new floor riser or patches in the old one.

Some guys repair the floor, then assemble the hat channels loosely on the frame, and the tub on top of that to make sure everything lines up. Rocketeer I believe was the one who suggested turning the frame upside down as a jig over top of an upturned tub.

Many ways to go to town , and all are right.