My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Mytwojeeps2020 on August 30, 2020, 01:16:10 PM
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Hello!
I’ve got a weird problem, if you can help.
(To begin, just some background on me: I’ve never messed around inside my 1964 F-head engine or drive train-I know my limitations).
Two weeks ago, I changed the oil, removed and degreased the oil bath air filter, and replaced the two hoses that connect the oil bath to the carb and the oil bath to the oil filler tube. I refilled the oil bath pan to its proper level with the same oil I use in the engine. I drove it for about 30 minutes. It ran well, so I parked it.
Yesterday, it cranked but wouldn’t start. I rechecked everything, even though what I replaced two weeks ago shouldn’t have affected the ignition.
This is what I found:
The oil level in the crankcase had significantly dropped, and,
When I dropped the oil bath oil pan, it was overflowing with fresh oil. Oil was dripping down from the filter mesh above the pan.
I didn’t try to restart it, because I didn’t want the carb to suck in oil from the filter.
Apparently, when cranking it yesterday, the engine forced oil up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath. I’ve never seen anything like this before.
I removed the hose connecting the oil bath to the carb - it was clean and dry (no oil). I also pulled off the carb horn and it was clean with no sign of oil.
Two questions, if I may:
What caused the oil to come up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath, and,
Why didn’t it start? (Luckily, it didn’t).
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
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Hello!
I’ve got a weird problem, if you can help.
(To begin, just some background on me: I’ve never messed around inside my 1964 F-head engine or drive train-I know my limitations).
Two weeks ago, I changed the oil, removed and degreased the oil bath air filter, and replaced the two hoses that connect the oil bath to the carb and the oil bath to the oil filler tube. I refilled the oil bath pan to its proper level with the same oil I use in the engine. I drove it for about 30 minutes. It ran well, so I parked it.
Yesterday, it cranked but wouldn’t start. I rechecked everything, even though what I replaced two weeks ago shouldn’t have affected the ignition.
This is what I found:
The oil level in the crankcase had significantly dropped, and,
When I dropped the oil bath oil pan, it was overflowing with fresh oil. Oil was dripping down from the filter mesh above the pan.
I didn’t try to restart it, because I didn’t want the carb to suck in oil from the filter.
Apparently, when cranking it yesterday, the engine forced oil up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath. I’ve never seen anything like this before.
I removed the hose connecting the oil bath to the carb - it was clean and dry (no oil). I also pulled off the carb horn and it was clean with no sign of oil.
Two questions, if I may:
What caused the oil to come up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath, and,
Why didn’t it start? (Luckily, it didn’t).
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Mytwojeeps,
I quoted your post as it was blank (logged out to see, copy/paste, yada, yada) so others that have the same issues can see your post as well.
You changed oil and replaced hoses. What about your PCV valve on the driver's side? Is that cleaned out? Also, how do you have the hoses connected for your breather; do you have two (from valve cover and oil filler tube) tied together with T fitting then to the breather or just one (from the oil filler tube) directly to the breather?
Did you notice any fluctuation on the oil pressure gauge while driving? I would be difficult to push that much oil up the filler tube (no real mechanism that I can think of) to back-flow into the breather. It is possible for gunk (combination of oil and condensation) to build at the top of the tube due to blocked PCV.
Having a noticeable drop in the oil pan (using the dipstick?) indicates the oil isn't circulating; It's either leaking out somewhere (wetness around engine, puddles on the ground) or it's not returning to the oil pan as it should.
I can't picture how you've got things hooked up so I'm only guessing.
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Excessive crankcase pressure will force oil out in one or either (or both) of the following directions: Up and out of the oil filler tube or through the PCV valve and into the carburetor. The condition is caused by a clogged PCV system. Not just the valve, but the tube from the lower valve cover. Have you dropped the oil pan to check on the amount of sludge in the bottom?
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Rus,
First, thanks for straightening out my post.
I pasted your post here, and have added in my remarks in CAPS. Many thanks for your help!
Mytwojeeps,
I quoted your post as it was blank (logged out to see, copy/paste, yada, yada) so others that have the same issues can see your post as well.
You changed oil and replaced hoses. What about your PCV valve on the driver's side? (NO, I DID NOT TOUCH THE PCV VALVE. IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THE PCV VALVE HAS NEVER BEEN REPLACED OR CLEANED OUT. I'M GUESSING THAT MY PCV VALVE IS WHAT THE SPARK PLUG CABLE HOLDER IS ANCHORED TO?) Is that cleaned out? Also, how do you have the hoses connected for your breather; do you have two (from valve cover and oil filler tube) tied together with T fitting then to the breather or just one (from the oil filler tube) directly to the breather? (THERE ARE TWO HOSES COMING OFF THE AIR CLEANER: ONE LARGE ONE GOES TO THE CARB, AND A SMALLER ONE TO THE OIL FILLER TUBE. ON THE OIL BATH FILTER, THE LARGE ONE GOING TO THE CARB IS SEVERAL INCHES ABOVE THE THE ONE GOING TO THE OIL FILLER TUBE. IF THEY ARE CONNECTED, THE CONNECTION IS INSIDE THE FILTER WHERE I CAN'T GET TO IT. I WILL TRY TO POST A PIC OF MY SETUP)
Did you notice any fluctuation on the oil pressure gauge while driving? (NO. IT SEEMED STEADY) I would be difficult to push that much oil up the filler tube (no real mechanism that I can think of) to back-flow into the breather. It is possible for gunk (combination of oil and condensation) to build at the top of the tube due to blocked PCV. (THE IDEA OF A BLOCKED/DEAD PCV NEVER OCCURED TO ME. BTW, WHEN I TRIED TO CRANK IT, I WAS PROBABLY TRYING TO CRANK IT FOR SEVERAL MINUTES. COULD THAT HAVE BEEN LONG ENOUGH TO BRING OIL UP FROM THE CRANKCASE AND FORCE IT INTO THE OIL BATH?)
Having a noticeable drop in the oil pan (using the dipstick?) indicates the oil isn't circulating; It's either leaking out somewhere (wetness around engine, puddles on the ground) or it's not returning to the oil pan as it should. (I COULDN'T SEE IT LEAKING ANYWHERE, BUT THEN AGAIN, WHEN I SAW WHAT WAS IN THE OIL BATH PAN I DIDN'T LOOK ELSEWHERE. I WAS ASSUMING THAT THAT IS WHERE THE MISSING OIL WENT)
I can't picture how you've got things hooked up so I'm only guessing.
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mytwojeeps,
This may be a bit confusing.
There are 3 different valve covers that I'm aware of (others jump in if I'm missing any):
Hose from Valve Cover Elbow to T fitting (I have this type). Oil Filler Tube to T fitting then to Breather.
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/Wilson/Wilson5300049.jpg)
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/1954/Barrow54/BarrowEngine.jpg)
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/Wade/CurtisPhotos/FHeadRight.JPG)
Plain Valve Cover . No fittings. Only one hose from Oil Filler Tube to Breather.
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/1960/Hull60/Hull60EngineFinished.jpg)
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/1960/Anderson60/Anderson60Engine.jpg)
Valve Cover Breather . No hose - but I'm not sure these valve cover breathers were original on the 3B (anyone jump in and correct!)
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/Mentz/MentzEngine.JPG)
This is the first I've seen with a breather on top WITH a hose
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/1964/DeLarge64/DeLarge64Engine.jpg)
Good image of the PCV valve on the side Exhaust Valve cover.
(https://cj3b.info/Photos/Owners/Couvillon/CouvillonEngineSide.jpg)
The Spark Plug Wire Clip is attached at the rear of the Valve Cover using the attachment stud/ nut nearest the firewall and can be seen in some of the images above.
Typically, when cranking with the starter, the rpms are lower than idle. I would not expect there to be enough pressure to push your oil like that. The oil pressure gauge barely reads pressure when cranking. After the engine starts, you'll see the pressure jump up - indicating the pump is working. Driving down the road will create more pressure.
Still, not knowing how you've got your engine plumbed makes this guessing game just that. A picture speaks a thousand words. 2 pictures (one on the left side, one on the right) would be equal to two thousand words.
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Scoutpilot: Thanks for your reply. When I changed the oil two weeks ago, there was no sign of sludge.
Rus: Thanks for the pics! I have the Plain Valve Cover, as you described. I was wrong in my first post: the spark plug wires are just attached to a mount. There is no PCV valve incorporated into it.
I think I'd better end this tread at this point until I gather more info/pictures. My Jeep is stored 60 miles from here, and I can't get back to it for a week or so.
Many thanks for all the help! I'll be back in touch.
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Ok, I’m back with pics (and more information)!
This Jeep has been in the family since 1970.
I have good reason to believe the PCV valve on this 1964 engine has never been replaced.
It’s never been much of a highway Jeep; mainly, a wood’s runner.
I now have some pics of my PCV plumbing, and I’ve attached them here.
Pic 1: PCV connection from the engine
Pic 2: The PCV line connecting into the T-connection
Pic 3: The left side line from the T was crimped off (vacuum wiper never used)
Pic 4: The PVC line connecting underneath the carb.
I’m not an engine person, but I did put a wrench on the PCV valve, and it turns easily.
Going back to my original problem, I’m thing the PCV valve is clogged and the engine is forcing oil up the oil filler tube and into the air bath filter.
Any thoughts are appreciated!
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You replaced the hoses. If the old hoses leaked air, then a previously clogged PCV valve would not be exposed.
You changed the oil. Old sludge could have been knocked loose and got sucked into the PCV valve or tubes, thus clogging it up.
The pinched off tube was done because you no longer run a dual vacuum fuel pump. Leave the crimp as is.
I would remove the PCV valve, tubes and cone into the lower valve cover and thoroughly clean them all. The PCV valve comes apart. There is a small spring and a little orifice blocker inside. Very simple component. Reassemble, then take it for a spin.
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M2J,
Great detail on the images. This will help everyone to possibly help solve this. The fact you don't have a fitting/hose on the top of your valve cover eliminates one theory I had. So, now on to what else it might be.
1st picture: Paint matches, so can we assume that PCV has been there forever. Single stage fuel pump so no need for extra vacuum plumbing. When disassembling the PCV valve, you should find a cone shaped insert and spring inside. Clean all of that and reassemble in correct order.
https://www.cj3b.info/Tech/PCV.html
2nd picture: With the vacuum "T" having remnants of a dual vacuum pump fitting, can we assume the single stage fuel pump was swapped in at some point?
3rd picture: Teflon on the threads to hopefully ensure seal. While crimping a line like this could work in a pinch...(see what I did there?).... I would probably have looked for a threaded cap at some point. BUT if it's not leaking, don't bother it.
4th picture: Solex carb? The vacuum line is connected to the intake manifold port. In this image, the hose from the oil filler tube to breather is disconnected.
At this point, I think we'd need to go back to Scoutpilot's suggestion. Has the PCV valve been removed and cleaned? While doing that, blow the lines to see if they're clear (high pressure not needed unless blocked perhaps - just looking for unrestricted flow). If I were doing this, I would connect a rubber hose section to the straight tube going into the "T" fitting (after PCV valve is removed) and use lung pressure to blow for the test. This would be a great time to use some liquid soap (or steal some of your kids bubble making solution) on all the fittings AND that crimped end to check for leaks. Disconnect the intake manifold before in case there's crap in the line - no need to push that into the engine, plus then it can be plugged (assistant mechanic's finger) to do the bubble check.
If there's blockage or leaks, there may be the possibility of vapor/sludge/oil working its way to the air breather via that one lone hose (that crankcase pressure has to go somewhere).
I had a lot of foamy sludge build up in my filler neck until I fixed the oil filler cap seal and installed a working PCV valve.
**What hawk said above!** (takes me a while to type)
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Rus, I've reposted some of your note. My replies are in Upper Case.
2nd picture: With the vacuum "T" having remnants of a dual vacuum pump fitting, can we assume the single stage fuel pump was swapped in at some point? POSSIBLY, NO FAMILY MEMORY OF THE OLD GAS PUMP. WHEN WE GOT THE JEEP, USED, IN 1970, IT HAD BEEN "WELL-USED". THE DRIVER'S SIDE WIPER HAS NEVER BEEN CONNECTED. THE SINGLE STAGE FUEL PUMP IN THE PHOTO HAS BEEN REPLACED AT LEAST TWICE - ALWAYS WITH A SINGLE STAGE.
3rd picture: Teflon on the threads to hopefully ensure seal. While crimping a line like this could work in a pinch...(see what I did there?).... I would probably have looked for a threaded cap at some point. BUT if it's not leaking, don't bother it. 10-4
4th picture: Solex carb? YES. I REPLACED THIS A YEAR OR SO AGO The vacuum line is connected to the intake manifold port. In this image, the hose from the oil filler tube to breather is disconnected. WHEN I TOOK THAT PHOTO, I HAD REMOVED THE OIL BATH CLEANER (AND HOSE TO THE OIL FILLER TUBE) FOR DEGREASING.
At this point, I think we'd need to go back to Scoutpilot's suggestion. Has the PCV valve been removed and cleaned? NEVER, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. TO BE TRUTHFUL, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT A PCV VALVE WAS UNTIL I STARTED RESEARCHING IT ON THIS FORUM. While doing that, blow the lines to see if they're clear (high pressure not needed unless blocked perhaps - just looking for unrestricted flow). If I were doing this, I would connect a rubber hose section to the straight tube going into the "T" fitting (after PCV valve is removed) and use lung pressure to blow for the test. YES, THANKS, I WILL TRY THIS. IT MIGHT SAVE ME THE TROUBLE OF REPLACING THE LINE BETWEEN THE PCV AND INTAKE MANIFOLD. This would be a great time to use some liquid soap (or steal some of your kids bubble making solution) on all the fittings AND that crimped end to check for leaks. Disconnect the intake manifold before in case there's crap in the line - no need to push that into the engine, plus then it can be plugged (assistant mechanic's finger) to do the bubble check. 10-4
If there's blockage or leaks, there may be the possibility of vapor/sludge/oil working its way to the air breather via that one lone hose (that crankcase pressure has to go somewhere).
I had a lot of foamy sludge build up in my filler neck until I fixed the oil filler cap seal and installed a working PCV valve.
A few extra questions, please:
1. It looks like I have to take the T Connection off first in order to unscrew the PCV valve. Is this correct?
2. I have a feeling that after five decades the T connection will not sustain disassembly, but will break off (but I’ll remain hopeful with some PB Blaster). If it breaks, is that just regular brake line that runs from the PCV valve to the intake manifold?
3. While I'm at it, should I remove (for cleaning) the slide valve cover breather and the brass fitting that attaches it to the PCV valve? If I do, it looks like I’ll have to unscrew the bolt that goes through the center of the breather cup and into the block. HOWEVER, from the mechanical drawings, it looks like that bolt goes well into the block. I don’t want to mess with that if it’s likely I’ll screw up the engine. Your thoughts?
MANY THANKS, FOLKS. I APPRECIATE EVERY BIT OF YOUR HELP!.
John
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You can leave the brass-T alone if you’re worried about breaking it. Unscrew the line that crosses in front of the engine. Now pull the one bolt out of the valve cover that penetrates the cup. This will free up the whole assembly. The valve cover bolt is long, but only because it has to reach the hole on the other side of the valve chamber. You can’t mess anything up by removing it.
From there, you can probably clean that whole assembly without pulling it apart using a pipe cleaner and some brake fluid. I would still separate the PCV valve and clean up the interior pieces of it.
The rest of the tubes are typical brake lines found at your favorite auto parts store, but they can be cleaned up if the threads on the connector ends aren’t all chewed up.
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athawk gives you a good start. If I was doing it, I would disassemble the entire unit from the intake manifold starting at the manifold side of the 'T' and from the 'T' back to the cup. He's right in that the screw is long, but it is pointed to help locate that hole deep inside. It won't be a piece of cake to get it started and you probably will have to cut a new gasket for the cup. Start your reassembly with the cup. Here are some photos to help you.
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A few extra questions, please:
1. It looks like I have to take the T Connection off first in order to unscrew the PCV valve. Is this correct?
2. I have a feeling that after five decades the T connection will not sustain disassembly, but will break off (but I’ll remain hopeful with some PB Blaster). If it breaks, is that just regular brake line that runs from the PCV valve to the intake manifold?
3. While I'm at it, should I remove (for cleaning) the slide valve cover breather and the brass fitting that attaches it to the PCV valve? If I do, it looks like I’ll have to unscrew the bolt that goes through the center of the breather cup and into the block. HOWEVER, from the mechanical drawings, it looks like that bolt goes well into the block. I don’t want to mess with that if it’s likely I’ll screw up the engine. Your thoughts?
MANY THANKS, FOLKS. I APPRECIATE EVERY BIT OF YOUR HELP!.
John
I'm still having to log out, read, then post. The others are getting you squared away. Good.
1. Honestly, I've never removed, cleaned and installed a stock PCV valve. Mine was empty. I'd been running for a long time with disposable type (clipped it into rubber hose segments and changed it out when serviced), so hawks explanation helps me out too. I was kinda wondering how others did it.
2. The lines are more fragile than that T fitting. penetrant/soak if it doesn't budge (you only have one side). Taking off the vacuum that crosses the front towards the passenger side is what I was thinking too. That vacuum line is the same as 1/4" fuel line. I've replaced all mine and had to bend them myself (without an old one to use as a pattern). Good times.
3. What they said.
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Thanks, all, for pointing me in the right direction!
I can't get back to where my Jeep is stored for another two weeks. Then, I plan to do some surgery. I'll let you folks know what happens.
Again, MANY thanks!
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Ok, I’m finally back with more info.
I replaced the PCV valve and the PCV line that goes to the intake manifold.
Same thing occurs: after starting it it runs very rough and oil is still being ejected from the oil filler tube back to the air bath filter. The PCV must not have been the issue.
I sampled some oil from my oil pan. It’s black as coal (the oil and filter were changed about 20 minutes running time ago), and the oil has gas in it. I put a few drops on the floor and lit a match - it instantly ignighted).
Radiator fluid is a bit low, but doesn’t appear to be much.
I’m at a complete loss. Not being mechanically inclined, I’m thinking a rebuild might be in order.
Your thoughts, kind friends?
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When it does run, what color is the exhaust?
If it is black and sooty then it is getting too much fuel.
Your Solex may be dumping fuel into the engine, washing all the soot and crud into the oil pan, blackening the oil and filling the pan.
Do you have a manual choke? is it opening all the way or maybe stuck closed...? I've read that the Solex is sensitive to fuel pressure. Are you using a pressure regulator?
I would not run it again until you find the fuel source, as it will wash the oil off the cylinder walls and cause big problems.
I would for sure change the oil and filter before trying another start.
You can also get fuel in the oil through a faulty fuel pump.
Once you get the oil changed and decide to try another start, I would first remove the large air tube that runs from the air cleaner to the carb, and let the carb draw air unrestricted, just to see if it runs better and if the oil coming from the filler tube still occurs.
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1955cj-5:
Thanks for your response!
My answers are in bold below:
When it does run, what color is the exhaust? BLUE GRAY
If it is black and sooty then it is getting too much fuel.
Your Solex may be dumping fuel into the engine, washing all the soot and crud into the oil pan, blackening the oil and filling the pan. INTERESTING. THE SOLEX ONLY HAS ABOUT 20 HOURS ON IT
Do you have a manual choke? YES is it opening all the way or maybe stuck closed...? I've read that the Solex is sensitive to fuel pressure. Are you using a pressure regulator? NO. I DONT KNOW WHAT THAT IS...
I would not run it again until you find the fuel source, as it will wash the oil off the cylinder walls and cause big problems.
I would for sure change the oil and filter before trying another start.
You can also get fuel in the oil through a faulty fuel pump. PUMP IS BRAND NEW, NOT THAT THST NECESSARILY MATTERS
Once you get the oil changed and decide to try another start, I would first remove the large air tube that runs from the air cleaner to the carb, and let the carb draw air unrestricted, just to see if it runs better and if the oil coming from the filler tube still occurs. ALREADY DID THAT. THE OIL WAS PUMPING OUT THE OIL FILL TUBE LIKE A CUT ARTERY
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Ok, I’m finally back with more info.
I replaced the PCV valve and the PCV line that goes to the intake manifold.
Same thing occurs: after starting it it runs very rough and oil is still being ejected from the oil filler tube back to the air bath filter. The PCV must not have been the issue.
I sampled some oil from my oil pan. It’s black as coal (the oil and filter were changed about 20 minutes running time ago), and the oil has gas in it. I put a few drops on the floor and lit a match - it instantly ignighted).
Radiator fluid is a bit low, but doesn’t appear to be much.
I’m at a complete loss. Not being mechanically inclined, I’m thinking a rebuild might be in order.
Your thoughts, kind friends?
M2J,
I also suspect the fuel pump. Smell the oil that is in the oil pan. Does it smell like oil or gas? Is it thin and runny (like water) or thick like oil?
I've never seen nor heard of an engine pumping oil out the filler neck as you describe, "Like a cut artery." It would take a lot to pump that far up the tube. Before changing, what was the oil level on the dipstick? Higher?
Blue/gray exhaust usually suggests oil burning. There could be an issue with the head gasket. Oil droplets in the antifreeze (or water droplets in the oil) can also be a sign Or white smoke billowing out the tail pipe).
I'm wondering if you might be able to post a video of the issue you're describing.
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I agree, the oil out the filler tube is strange. That would seem to imply the crankcase/oil pan is pressurized. Combining that symptom with the gas in the oil would lead me to think the fuel pump is the culprit, pumping gas into the oil, and over filling the oil pan. Very dangerous as the fumes are compacted. Any backfire and ...bang. I would look at the fuel pump and cleaning the oil pan from all gas in it first, just for safety reasons, and as Rus said, the gas in the oil wipes out the lubrication film in the engine, so it shouldn't be run like that. Safety first!
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The oil would have to be pretty high in the pan for it to even reach the base of the oil fill tube....how much oil are you putting in?
do you have the correct length dip stick? The one I have is 25 3/8 from the inside base of the cap to the tip.....23" to the full line.....
If I look down the fill tube with a flashlight, I can see the small hole at the bottom that the dipstick fits through, then i see the surface of the oil a short distance below that.
Can you see the hole down there or just oil?
The fill tube on my f-134 is 14 3/8 from where it enters the block to the lip, without the cap in place.
At about 9" from the block there is a clip that holds it in place, fastened to the bottom oil filter mounting bolt.
This picture is the bottom of the fill tube....
My thought is the tube may have been pushed down into the oil, but I'm not even sure if that is possible.
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See if the following helps you see the ventilation system... https://cj3b.info/Tech/PCV.html Or this... https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/oil-pressure.12689/
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In general when I searched for oil blowing out the oil fill tube, the same 3 options seem to come up as suggested in this non-Willys forum answer. Info should help. You may have clogged ventilation as well as the rings are not "seated" on your rebuild compounding the prolem. Start with easiets as suggested here... willie's avatar
willie
asked in Cars & TransportationMaintenance & Repairs · 1 decade ago
I have oil blowing out of dipstick tube?
what are possible causes for oil to be discharge out of dipstick tube? a little to none at idle. much more when driving. engine is a 5.0 (305) chevy in a 1988 1500 scottsdale.. vehicle sat for approximately one year before I bought it.
AnswerSave
17 Answers
Kenneth S's avatar
Kenneth S
Lv 5
1 decade ago
Favorite Answer
3 things come to mind...I'll go with the simplest first...you are over full on oil. The second is the PCV Valve is clogged...PCV stands for Positive Crankcase Ventilation...this allows the crankcase to vent..(this is where your oil is in the oil pan)...and the last...not a good thing but probably worth fixing...your piston rings are bad allowing blowby...(this is oil escaping past the piston rings and compression passing back past the combustion chamber into the crankcase). This causes pressure to build up in the crankcase and the easiest escape route is through the dip stick tube.
To check your PCV valve...this is the little item which is located on your valve cover...normally on the drivers side..simply remove it and shake it...if it rattles inside than odds are it's good. once you have done this place your finger over the end of it with the engine running and see if it has suction....if it does then this eliminates this.
If the engine oil level is ok...then sorry it's the rings in the engine and requires a rebuild or a replacement engine.
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In general when I searched for oil blowing out the oil fill tube, the same 3 options seem to come up as suggested in this non-Willys forum answer. Info should help. You may have clogged ventilation as well as the rings are not "seated" on your rebuild compounding the prolem. Start with easiets as suggested here... willie's avatar
willie
asked in Cars & TransportationMaintenance & Repairs · 1 decade ago
I have oil blowing out of dipstick tube?
what are possible causes for oil to be discharge out of dipstick tube? a little to none at idle. much more when driving. engine is a 5.0 (305) chevy in a 1988 1500 scottsdale.. vehicle sat for approximately one year before I bought it.
AnswerSave
17 Answers
Kenneth S's avatar
Kenneth S
Lv 5
1 decade ago
Favorite Answer
3 things come to mind...I'll go with the simplest first...you are over full on oil. The second is the PCV Valve is clogged...PCV stands for Positive Crankcase Ventilation...this allows the crankcase to vent..(this is where your oil is in the oil pan)...and the last...not a good thing but probably worth fixing...your piston rings are bad allowing blowby...(this is oil escaping past the piston rings and compression passing back past the combustion chamber into the crankcase). This causes pressure to build up in the crankcase and the easiest escape route is through the dip stick tube.
To check your PCV valve...this is the little item which is located on your valve cover...normally on the drivers side..simply remove it and shake it...if it rattles inside than odds are it's good. once you have done this place your finger over the end of it with the engine running and see if it has suction....if it does then this eliminates this.
If the engine oil level is ok...then sorry it's the rings in the engine and requires a rebuild or a replacement engine.
Steve,
Interesting stuff. I would presume a compression check would be low on bad rings.
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This is an interesting problem.
I agree that there must be some blow-by through the rings, pressurizing the crankcase to some extent. I think all older design engines will have some blow-by, worn engines more than rebuilt.
But then the pan oil has to reach the base of the fill tube or maybe even be above it. As I look through my fill tube there is an obvious(though I can't tell how large) air space between the bottom of the tube and the oil surface.
And if the oil is reaching the bottom of the fill tube, you then have the suction of the crankcase vent tube, through the air cleaner and carb.
So you essentially have a pump, pumping oil from the pan, up the tube and through the intake.
The Model A Ford has no crankcase ventilation other than back through the fill tube. They are well known for misting the interior of the engine compartment with oil, blown from the fill tube. There are even baffles inserted into the tube to help reduce the misting.
I'm looking forward to having this mystery solved!
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I could not get a movie to upload, just may be too large. It’s about 70 seconds long.
Anyway, here is a screenshot. Lots of vibration because my phone was sitting on my fender while the engine was running.
The yellow plug in the foreground is a battery wire. Directly behind that, you can see the oil gushing out the oil filler tube that runs between it and the oil bath (I had taken the hose off so I could get a picture of the oil gushing out)
BTW, before this happened, the oil was at the correct level.
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M2J,
I also suspect the fuel pump. Smell the oil that is in the oil pan. Does it smell like oil or gas? Is it thin and runny (like water) or thick like oil?
I've never seen nor heard of an engine pumping oil out the filler neck as you describe, "Like a cut artery." It would take a lot to pump that far up the tube. Before changing, what was the oil level on the dipstick? Higher?
Blue/gray exhaust usually suggests oil burning. There could be an issue with the head gasket. Oil droplets in the antifreeze (or water droplets in the oil) can also be a sign Or white smoke billowing out the tail pipe).
I'm wondering if you might be able to post a video of the issue you're describing.
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Hi, Rus!
The fuel pump was replaced about 100 miles ago. Now, I’m beginning to question if the garage put it in right. Nice guys, but we are dealing with a nearly 60 year old engine that is very analog compared to modern cars. I would hope they installed it with a gasket, but who knows? Or, the part itself may be bad. All this new trouble started after the fuel pump was installed.
The oil I sampled from the oil pan is pitch black, and filled with gas-looks and smells to be more gas than oil. Brand new filter and new oil, and it turned into this after 20 minutes of run time. The crankcase had been filled with fresh oil to the proper level.
The video is 70 seconds long. I can’t upload it to this site, unless I’m missing a procedure somewhere. If anyone would like to PM me with their email, I can try and send it by that method.
Here is a pic of my oil sample.
Thanks, folks!
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Hi, Rus!
The fuel pump was replaced about 100 miles ago. Now, I’m beginning to question if the garage put it in right. Nice guys, but we are dealing with a nearly 60 year old engine that is very analog compared to modern cars. I would hope they installed it with a gasket, but who knows? Or, the part itself may be bad. All this new trouble started after the fuel pump was installed.
The oil I sampled from the oil pan is pitch black, and filled with gas-looks and smells to be more gas than oil. Brand new filter and new oil, and it turned into this after 20 minutes of run time. The crankcase had been filled with fresh oil to the proper level.
The video is 70 seconds long. I can’t upload it to this site, unless I’m missing a procedure somewhere. If anyone would like to PM me with their email, I can try and send it by that method.
Thanks, folks!
OKAY!
I think we may be zeroing in on this! I saw the "spew" in your posted pic. Never saw that before.....
That jar looks like gas/oil contamination.
To post a video, I believe you'd have to host on something like YouTube and post a link.
The fact that your oil gets contaminated immediately (smell, consistency, etc) really sounds like the fuel pump. The pump gasket only helps seal up against the engine block (avoiding oil leaks around it) but inside there is a diaphragm that is driven by the arm sticking into the block and making contact with the cam. That rocking arm against the diaphragm creates the pumping action that pulls gas from the tank and pushes it up to the carb. When there is a hole/tear, fuel has a direct path into the oil pan. This type failure was common back when we all had mechanical pumps.
Now that your symptoms seem to point towards a bad pump, it is very plausible that gas is filling up the oil pan and causing the level to rise up to the filler tube hole. You should also notice more fluid coming out of the oil pan dran when you drain it. Treat it like it is gas.
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More blowby than the PCV system can handle. If the rings and cylinder walls are washed down by gas, this can happen. Has anyone suggested a compression or leak-down test?
BW
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Yes, my post yesterday @9:57
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Uh, oh..
I forgot to mention this. Yet another clue:
In re-reviewing the video today, I forgot to mention earlier that before the fluid starts hemorrhaging from the oil filler tube, I could see fluid spurting from beneath the oil canister. After I saw this, I put my hand on the hose beneath the oil canister, and it broke off very easily - the "oil" smelled like gas.
Thus, air may be leaking into the oil line from that location. I can't believe I forgot to mention this in my recent post, but re-reviewing the video reminded me of it.
I don't know if this is connected to my main problem. It may just be a coincidence it has broken from old age and may not have anything to do with my main issue.
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Do a compression test, you are obviously getting compression into the crankcase.
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I just watched M2J's video and yes, there's a bit of a leak at the return line under the canister. As the engine starts, you can see that trickle and after approx 23 seconds there's a spew that comes out of the filler neck - looks almost like a garden hose, shooting out to the fender.
I would think that given your fresh oil smells like gas and the way it looks you'd want to fix that pump issue first. And it would mean another oil change. BTW, have you checked the gas level in the tank? I'd guess it's a lot lower than before.
video to follow. See if this works...
https://youtu.be/1EiQVnz2h8c (https://youtu.be/1EiQVnz2h8c)
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That is amazing....
Almost looks like water mixed in also. How is the water level in the radiator?
Something is seriously wrong. I don't think a leaky fuel pump could deliver that much volume into the pan in so short a time. The pumps have a diaphragm and a seal that the fuel must get through first, if they are to leak fuel into the pan.
A pump that is working properly is supposed to deliver about a quart a minute, according to the manual....
Long shot.....There isn't an electric fuel pump mounted back towards the tank, is there?
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The water level in the radiator is ok.
I'll order a new fuel pump (and both lines to/from the oil filter canister) today.
I saw another thread that said replacement of the lower canister hose is easier with the fuel pump out, so that will work.
THANKS ALL !
PS: Rus, thanks for getting that video to Youtube. It speaks a thousand words!
PPS: Nope, no secondary electric fuel pump.
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WOW, that video showed a gusher and almost clear. If that clearness was gas, it is spraying right on your distributor which is dangerous. I think I would pull the plug on the side of the block and get a sample of the coolant for analysis to see if gas and/or oil is there as well. That seems to be a lot more flow than a quart/minute from the looks of it Buy the cheapest oil you can until you get this fixed.. That gas can't stay in the oil pan either. Pulling the pan may reveal new info too for the price of a gasket while the engine is down. What a mystery. Good Luck!
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It doesn’t look like it’s too much trouble to replace the gas pump, so I’ll try doing that myself. Beats taking it to the garage if it’s a simple job. Ive never done it before.
I dread dropping the oil pan, but I’ll do that as well. I’ve never done that before either. What makes it worse is that I’m operating on a dirt floor.
I’ll get as much gas out of the oil as possible, replace filter and oil, and try cranking again.
I’ll be back in a couple of weeks with an update.
MANY THANKS!
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It doesn’t look like it’s too much trouble to replace the gas pump, so I’ll try doing that myself. Beats taking it to the garage if it’s a simple job. Ive never done it before.
I dread dropping the oil pan, but I’ll do that as well. I’ve never done that before either. What makes it worse is that I’m operating on a dirt floor.
I’ll get as much gas out of the oil as possible, replace filter and oil, and try cranking again.
I’ll be back in a couple of weeks with an update.
MANY THANKS!
The pump should be easy: 2 bolts and a gasket. Whoever supplies the pump, check to ensure it has modern rubber that is compatible with Ethenol. Original rubber can either already be brittle or could deteriorate faster with modern fuels. No idea if you have vacuum wipers but if that's not a desire, there's no need to add additional complications. You may be able to get yours rebuilt with a better diaphragm and possibly cheaper, but I'd check with Scoutpilot for advise.
I'm not sure there's an advantage to dropping the pan unless you want to inspect the float (the round oil pickup that pulls oil up to the pump) and see if it's clogged or if there's clumps at the bottom of the pan that needs cleaning out. But having an undesired gas mix running through your oil has cleaned your engine. But, if done, you'll need to ensure the pan flange is flat around the holes so that it won't cut into the gasket when re-attaching. See here (I did this to my oil pan):
https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild7.html
On your dirt floor, suggest a tarp (may be easier to slide around on) or just some scrap cardboard (also helps with sliding around). Both keep you cleaner. There was a thread over on the 2A forum where specific products are available that really are slippery and aid sliding around under a vehicle. Nothing wrong with going low-tech.
I'd also suggest using cheap oil until you get this sorted out. Once you can successfully run the engine without spewing fluids or mixing those fluids, and this oil has a chance to "rinse" the gas residual out of the passages, then you can do a good oil change with some ZDDP (additive or high content).
To Steve's point, I would initially assume that either oil or gas would float on the top of water/antifreeze and "should" be visible through the radiator neck - as droplets. Also, if antifreeze were getting into the oil passages, there should be droplets on the dipstick or when pouring the oil out. I've not seen everything and have been proven wrong many times. But sometimes a jar full of liquid is helpful to identify what's in it - even crud floating around in the liquid.
I see above you've already ordered the oil lines for the canister. I ran into a problem when a trusted vendor sent the wrong length hose. I asked why there was a difference and the answer was, "Most owners remove a stock fitting on the bottom of the canister so the extra length on the hose is designed to attach directly to the canister." I had to shop around and ordered from a military vendor.
Read about that here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/cj3b_bulletin_board/viewtopic.php?p=44894#p44894 (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/cj3b_bulletin_board/viewtopic.php?p=44894#p44894)
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Out of curiosity I took the dip stick out of my engine and started it, fully expecting some blow-by to exit the fill tube, as my engine has never been rebuilt.
But, I felt nothing, so I covered the tube with my hand and there was just a bit of suction, this was at idle.
I still marvel at that geyser and wonder where that much pressure and volume of fluid could be coming from...
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The oil is contaminated (thinned) with gasoline. The piston rings can't seal effectively without a coating of oil to help. The thinned oil is not doing what it's supposed to. Worse yet, the rings and cylinder walls might be washed down by excess gasoline in the combustion chambers. The OP has a Solex carb and evidently no fuel pressure regulator. We've all heard the Solex horror stories. Thinned oil, washed-down cylinder walls, rings not able to seal, more fuel in the chambers than the engine can burn, which will be forced past the rings as well. More blowby than the PCV system can even hope to handle, especially at higher speeds. I'm surprised the engine runs at all, and I fear for its welfare in the future, considering what its been through.
BW
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I’ve still got a few experiments left to do, which I can’t get to until at least next week, so I’ll sign off for now.
Thanks all, and please have a good Thanksgiving! I’ll be back with the results.
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I had the same problem with the F134 in my '57 CJ3B. As I drove, the oil would get sucked out of the engine into the oil bath air cleaner. It turned out that my engine was very worn and had a lot of blowback along with low compression. I since had the engine rebuilt and that solved the problem. No more oil overflowing the air bath cup.
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Hi, sorry if I am stating the obvious but you did suggest that you had not much experience with engines.
You describe replacing some hoses. Are you confident that they were not pinched during the process. Just a thought but if the hose to or from you oil filter was blocked by such a pinch the oil, now under pressure, would have no option but to find another route.
It seems that you have had a lot of problems as a result of a simple oil change and if it was working before you did it then it should be working now. It is likely, in my opinion, that the fault may lie in the initial hose replacement or the filter itself.
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Gary,
You’re right. After I run the next couple of experiments (hopefully, next week), I’ll be able to get a little closer to the problem. If it’s the engine, I may take my .45 and put her down. But hopefully, it’s the fuel pump. I intend to do a compression test as well, in addition to replacing both oil filter lines. We shall see...
Percy,
No hose has been replaced, only the PCV line. I’m going to be replacing the two oil filter lines next week, along with a brand new fuel pump. This trouble started very shortly after I replaced the first fuel pump. It may have been bad to begin with.
PS: I’ve been running non-ethonal gas for the last ten years.
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OK sorry I misunderstood your original post. Fuel in the sump is a classic pump failure symptom. Good luck.
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The Big Day is Tomorrow!
So far:
New PCV valve is GO,
New PCV line from crankcase to intake manifold is GO,
New oil lines to & from oil filter canister are GO,
Drained oil pan and refilled with oil, GO
New fuel pump is a GO.
If she fires, I’ll do a compression test.
All luck to me!
PS: why do I feel like one of those stranded persons in the desert seeing if their hand- made aircraft will fly them to safety (Flight if the Phoenix)?
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is there a baffle on your oil dipstick ?
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Does your old fuel pump come apart easily?
It would be interesting to see what condition the diaphragm is in, and the valves too.......
It doesn't need to run to do a compression check, though if possible it's a better indication if you do one when the motor is warm.
If you find a low cylinder a little oil added through the sparkplug hole will help seal the rings, so then if the compression doesn't change it directs you to the valves... if it improves, it's the rings.
Good luck on the re-start.......
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Richard: no, no baffle.
1955cJ5:
I did not autopsy the “old” pump. It was replaced less than 5 running miles ago. I replaced it again on a theory that the “old” one had a bad diaphragm that was allowing it to flood the crankcase with gas. I also did the other stuff to try and cover all possibilities.
Tomorrow, I am going to briefly crank it up just to get oil back in the lines (and engine). That complete, I am going to disconnect the fuel and the coil-to-distributer wire, then crank it to test the compression.
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My baffle was missing also. Found it when I cleaned out the oil pan. Brazed it back on.
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Ok, boys & girls, here are the results.
Richard, if you’re out there, yes my oil dipstick has a baffle. I didn’t know what that was until I looked it up.
The engine fired up wonderfully- just like in days of yore.
I let it warm for a few minutes, then did the compression test. Starting with the first cylinder (at the front of the engine) and working backwards towards the firewall:
90
90
95
110
I used an OEM tester.
I let it idle for 30 minutes. A lot of smoke at first from the tailpipe and from the joint that connects the exhaust manifold to the tailpipe. After a few minutes, the latter stopped and the amount of smoke from the tailpipe lessened - but did not stop. I never had smoke before all this trouble started.
I checked the oil filler tube to air cleaner every few minutes and there was a vacuum, so all looks ok there. Unlike before, this time there was no gushing of oil/gas out this port.
Not one time in the 30 minutes did it “miss a beat,” at least to my untutored ear.
I’ve never had a lot of smoke before. During the run, the oil pressure (if the gauge is correct) dropped from about 41 to 38 psi.
So, the original issue “appears” to be the fuel pump.
I’ll take it out tomorrow for a run and see what happens. Right now I’m headed for the gin bottle.
Thanks all!
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PS: I just cranked it up again. No more smoke from the tailpipe.
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Sounds good. Congrats. Smoke seems like the PVC may be pulling some oil into the intake just above the exhaust manifold. You might be accumulating too much oil in the valve area, and the suction pulls the oil onto the hot pipe??? I don't think it would show up when just started, but I'm guessing from here. Good Luck!
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That compression is not so bad....it may come up if it's driven more
My cj had a low cylinder but some driving and Seafoam added to the gas helped bring it up....
Hope your drive goes well.
That pumping of fluid out the oil filler was bizarre....:)
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Ok, boys & girls, here are the results.
Richard, if you’re out there, yes my oil dipstick has a baffle. I didn’t know what that was until I looked it up.
The engine fired up wonderfully- just like in days of yore.
I let it warm for a few minutes, then did the compression test. Starting with the first cylinder (at the front of the engine) and working backwards towards the firewall:
90
90
95
110
I used an OEM tester.
I let it idle for 30 minutes. A lot of smoke at first from the tailpipe and from the joint that connects the exhaust manifold to the tailpipe. After a few minutes, the latter stopped and the amount of smoke from the tailpipe lessened - but did not stop. I never had smoke before all this trouble started.
I checked the oil filler tube to air cleaner every few minutes and there was a vacuum, so all looks ok there. Unlike before, this time there was no gushing of oil/gas out this port.
Not one time in the 30 minutes did it “miss a beat,†at least to my untutored ear.
I’ve never had a lot of smoke before. During the run, the oil pressure (if the gauge is correct) dropped from about 41 to 38 psi.
So, the original issue “appears†to be the fuel pump.
I’ll take it out tomorrow for a run and see what happens. Right now I’m headed for the gin bottle.
Thanks all!
(copied in case others can't see)
Congratulations on progress!! I guess that gin bottle was earned!
You coughed and spewed oil/gas into the breather - and possibly into the intake while figuring this out. But there are other things that could also be going on. When I reference the Service Manual, I find at the end of the Tune Up section (Section C) that those numbers are good for an L-head. The F-head should be a bit higher (my assumption is those numbers are for a new engine). But, many things can be going on. Other tests can help down the road but for now I agree, drive it!
The oil pressure should drop a bit as the temp comes up to normal. Don't be surprised to see lower pressure on your drive - when you stop at a traffic light, etc. when the engine is at idle.
There should be a gasket between the manifold and exhaust pipe. I had to cut mine.
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Took it out for its test drive today. Ran fine for about five minutes, then started smoking like it was burning coal! This happened when I put some stress on the engine by putting it into 4h and going through some sand. I immediately went back to camp.
The good thing is that oil no longer spews out the oil filler tube to the air filter.
Maybe I’ll try rye tonight...
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Took it out for its test drive today. Ran fine for about five minutes, then started smoking like it was burning coal! This happened when I put some stress on the engine by putting it into 4h and going through some sand. I immediately went back to camp.
The good thing is that oil no longer spews out the oil filler tube to the air filter.
Maybe I’ll try rye tonight...
The smoke, is blue-sh vs. white? Did it reduce when you got off the hard driving?
A sticky valve or leaky head gasket can help with making smoke. Valves can be adjusted, but the head gasket (if bad) would need replacement. Check oil and antifreeze (when cool) for droplets. Oil floats so if in the radiator, it should be right on top. Sometimes water droplets will stick to the dipstick when you pull it out, otherwise a small sample drained at the plug will tell. Eventually, if one or the other, there should be a drop in volume after some driving.
Sadly, these are old vehicles that require maintenance. Eventually, it gets worked out....
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Rus, my answers to your questions are in CAPS.
The smoke, is blue-sh vs. white? BLUE-ISH. Did it reduce when you got off the hard driving? NO
A sticky valve or leaky head gasket can help with making smoke. Valves can be adjusted, but the head gasket (if bad) would need replacement. Check oil and antifreeze (when cool) for droplets. ALL CLEAR. NO WATER IN OIL OR OIL IN ANTIFREEZE. Oil floats so if in the radiator, it should be right on top. Sometimes water droplets will stick to the dipstick when you pull it out, otherwise a small sample drained at the plug will tell. Eventually, if one or the other, there should be a drop in volume after some driving. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE SMOKE IS BEING CAUSED BY THE ENGINE STILL BURNING OFF THE GAS/OIL MIXTURE IN THE OIL PAN FROM THE ORIGINAL PROBLEM (BAS GAS PUMP)?
Sadly, these are old vehicles that require maintenance. Eventually, it gets worked out....
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Food for thought. If these old motors spend more time idling and/or in a lower RPM range they may not be able to breathe sufficiently to purge the crankcase of volatiles and moisture. The moisture will build up and appear in the oil filler tube as grey gunk. Even if the temp gauge says 160-180 that's not good enough. The simple solution? Drive it more and longer at, at least, 45 MPH.
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Scoutpilot, you’re right on point. This thing is rarely used on the highway, mostly on back trails. Also, rarely in third gear.
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Scoutpilot, you’re right on point. This thing is rarely used on the highway, mostly on back trails. Also, rarely in third gear.
Blu-ish is oil. So, at the risk of jumping to conclusions, I would guess there's no radiator leakage - just yet. I also agree with Scoutpilot. Short drives can be rough on engines.
I would guess that if you've changed the oil after that last fuel pump dump, where the fuel pump is now working and no more fuel is left in the oil pan, then that is now resolved (residual will evaporate). But spewing oil/gas up the filler neck as we've seen, could mean that oil wasn't going through the engine (without fuel dilution) as it should. There could be either some passages partially blocked, i.e. under the valve cover - allowing oil to trickle down valves and into the cylinders or there could also be worn rings/cylinders allowing more oil along the piston travel getting into the combustion chamber (see Bruce_W's post on previous page). A compression check with .5 oz of oil in each cylinder (SM, par E-106A) will help troubleshoot.
But, drive for now. Let it smoke. Carry a quart to top off if need be. A suggestion; if you can't get up to 45mph, leave it in a lower gear and drive. This will allow the engine time at a higher rpm expel gases and exhaust at a higher temp and pressure. Not 30 mph in 1st gear, but just leave it in 2nd, as you indicated, for as much as possible. I remember reading suggestions on vehicles needing 30mins-1hr driving to dry out exhaust. So aim for a good drive when you can.
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Will do, Rus, and thanks to all for your suggestions!
Again, my rig is not at home and can’t be visited except maybe every two weeks.
I’ll return to this thread after my next visit.
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Well, boys and girls, methinks it’s been fixed!
I drained and replaced the oil, replaced the PCV valve and the line between the crankcase and the intake manifold, and replaced the fuel pump.
I added STP oil additive to oil, and Seafoam to gas.
I ran it hard in first gear for about five miles. At first, it was smoking bad, but at about mile two it started to clear. By mile five, no more smoking. Additionally, there was a distinct vacuum from the oil filler pulling air down into the crankcase. No more vomiting!
I did not autopsy the “old” pump, which only had a few miles on it, as the supplier is taking it back. But my guess is is that that was the culprit.
Many thanks to all of you who gave me great advice!
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Well, boys and girls, methinks it’s been fixed!
I drained and replaced the oil, replaced the PCV valve and the line between the crankcase and the intake manifold, and replaced the fuel pump.
I added STP oil additive to oil, and Seafoam to gas.
I ran it hard in first gear for about five miles. At first, it was smoking bad, but at about mile two it started to clear. By mile five, no more smoking. Additionally, there was a distinct vacuum from the oil filler pulling air down into the crankcase. No more vomiting!
I did not autopsy the “old†pump, which only had a few miles on it, as the supplier is taking it back. But my guess is is that that was the culprit.
Many thanks to all of you who gave me great advice!
This is promising! After you've logged some miles on it, go back and check the compression to see if its the same or a bit different. Hope this keeps you on the trails!