Oil filler tube upchucking oil into my oil bath air filter!

[Mytwojeeps2020]

Hello!

I’ve got a weird problem, if you can help.

(To begin, just some background on me: I’ve never messed around inside my 1964 F-head engine or drive train-I know my limitations).

Two weeks ago, I changed the oil, removed and degreased the oil bath air filter, and replaced the two hoses that connect the oil bath to the carb and the oil bath to the oil filler tube. I refilled the oil bath pan to its proper level with the same oil I use in the engine. I drove it for about 30 minutes. It ran well, so I parked it.

Yesterday, it cranked but wouldn’t start. I rechecked everything, even though what I replaced two weeks ago shouldn’t have affected the ignition.

This is what I found:

The oil level in the crankcase had significantly dropped, and,

When I dropped the oil bath oil pan, it was overflowing with fresh oil. Oil was dripping down from the filter mesh above the pan.

I didn’t try to restart it, because I didn’t want the carb to suck in oil from the filter.

Apparently, when cranking it yesterday, the engine forced oil up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath. I’ve never seen anything like this before.

I removed the hose connecting the oil bath to the carb - it was clean and dry (no oil). I also pulled off the carb horn and it was clean with no sign of oil.

Two questions, if I may:

What caused the oil to come up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath, and,

Why didn’t it start?  (Luckily, it didn’t).

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[Rus Curtis]

Hello!

I’ve got a weird problem, if you can help.

(To begin, just some background on me: I’ve never messed around inside my 1964 F-head engine or drive train-I know my limitations).

Two weeks ago, I changed the oil, removed and degreased the oil bath air filter, and replaced the two hoses that connect the oil bath to the carb and the oil bath to the oil filler tube. I refilled the oil bath pan to its proper level with the same oil I use in the engine. I drove it for about 30 minutes. It ran well, so I parked it.

Yesterday, it cranked but wouldn’t start. I rechecked everything, even though what I replaced two weeks ago shouldn’t have affected the ignition.

This is what I found:

The oil level in the crankcase had significantly dropped, and,

When I dropped the oil bath oil pan, it was overflowing with fresh oil. Oil was dripping down from the filter mesh above the pan.

I didn’t try to restart it, because I didn’t want the carb to suck in oil from the filter.

Apparently, when cranking it yesterday, the engine forced oil up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath. I’ve never seen anything like this before.

I removed the hose connecting the oil bath to the carb - it was clean and dry (no oil). I also pulled off the carb horn and it was clean with no sign of oil.

Two questions, if I may:

What caused the oil to come up the oil filler tube and then into the oil bath, and,

Why didn’t it start?  (Luckily, it didn’t).

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Mytwojeeps,
I quoted your post as it was blank (logged out to see, copy/paste, yada, yada) so others that have the same issues can see your post as well.

You changed oil and replaced hoses.  What about your PCV valve on the driver's side?  Is that cleaned out?  Also, how do you have the hoses connected for your breather; do you have two (from valve cover and oil filler tube) tied together with T fitting then to the breather or just one (from the oil filler tube) directly to the breather?

Did you notice any fluctuation on the oil pressure gauge while driving?   I would be difficult to push that much oil up the filler tube (no real mechanism that I can think of) to back-flow into the breather.  It is possible for gunk (combination of oil and condensation) to build at the top of the tube due to blocked PCV.

Having a noticeable drop in the oil pan (using the dipstick?) indicates the oil isn't circulating; It's either leaking out somewhere (wetness around engine, puddles on the ground) or it's not returning to the oil pan as it should. 

I can't picture how you've got things hooked up so I'm only guessing. 

[scoutpilot]

Excessive crankcase pressure will force oil out in one or either (or both) of the following directions: Up and out of the oil filler tube or through the PCV valve and into the carburetor. The condition is caused by a clogged PCV system. Not just the valve, but the tube from the lower valve cover. Have you dropped the oil pan to check on the amount of sludge in the bottom?

[Mytwojeeps2020]

Rus,

First, thanks for straightening out my post.

I pasted your post here, and have added in my remarks in CAPS. Many thanks for your help!



Mytwojeeps,
I quoted your post as it was blank (logged out to see, copy/paste, yada, yada) so others that have the same issues can see your post as well.

You changed oil and replaced hoses.  What about your PCV valve on the driver's side? (NO, I DID NOT TOUCH THE PCV VALVE. IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THE PCV VALVE HAS NEVER BEEN REPLACED OR CLEANED OUT. I'M GUESSING THAT MY PCV VALVE IS WHAT THE SPARK PLUG CABLE HOLDER IS ANCHORED TO?) Is that cleaned out?  Also, how do you have the hoses connected for your breather; do you have two (from valve cover and oil filler tube) tied together with T fitting then to the breather or just one (from the oil filler tube) directly to the breather? (THERE ARE TWO HOSES COMING OFF THE AIR CLEANER: ONE LARGE ONE GOES TO THE CARB, AND A SMALLER ONE TO THE OIL FILLER TUBE. ON THE OIL BATH FILTER, THE LARGE ONE GOING TO THE CARB IS SEVERAL INCHES ABOVE THE THE ONE GOING TO THE OIL FILLER TUBE. IF THEY ARE CONNECTED, THE CONNECTION IS INSIDE THE FILTER WHERE I CAN'T GET TO IT. I WILL TRY TO POST A PIC OF MY SETUP)

Did you notice any fluctuation on the oil pressure gauge while driving? (NO. IT SEEMED STEADY)  I would be difficult to push that much oil up the filler tube (no real mechanism that I can think of) to back-flow into the breather.  It is possible for gunk (combination of oil and condensation) to build at the top of the tube due to blocked PCV. (THE IDEA OF A BLOCKED/DEAD PCV NEVER OCCURED TO ME. BTW, WHEN I TRIED TO CRANK IT, I WAS PROBABLY TRYING TO CRANK IT FOR SEVERAL MINUTES. COULD THAT HAVE BEEN LONG ENOUGH TO BRING OIL UP FROM THE CRANKCASE AND FORCE IT INTO THE OIL BATH?)

Having a noticeable drop in the oil pan (using the dipstick?) indicates the oil isn't circulating; It's either leaking out somewhere (wetness around engine, puddles on the ground) or it's not returning to the oil pan as it should. (I COULDN'T SEE IT LEAKING ANYWHERE, BUT THEN AGAIN, WHEN I SAW WHAT WAS IN THE OIL BATH PAN I DIDN'T LOOK ELSEWHERE. I WAS ASSUMING THAT THAT IS WHERE THE MISSING OIL WENT)

I can't picture how you've got things hooked up so I'm only guessing.

[Rus Curtis]

mytwojeeps,
This may be a bit confusing.

There are 3 different valve covers that I'm aware of (others jump in if I'm missing any):


Hose from Valve Cover Elbow to T fitting (I have this type).  Oil Filler Tube to T fitting then to Breather.





Plain Valve Cover .  No fittings.  Only one hose from Oil Filler Tube to Breather.




Valve Cover Breather .  No hose - but I'm not sure these valve cover breathers were original on the 3B (anyone jump in and correct!)


This is the first I've seen with a breather on top WITH a hose



Good image of the PCV valve on the side Exhaust Valve cover.



The Spark Plug Wire Clip is attached at the rear of the Valve Cover using the attachment stud/ nut nearest the firewall and can be seen in some of the images above.

Typically, when cranking with the starter, the rpms are lower than idle.  I would not expect there to be enough pressure to push your oil like that.  The oil pressure gauge barely reads pressure when cranking.  After the engine starts, you'll see the pressure jump up - indicating the pump is working.  Driving down the road will create more pressure.

Still, not knowing how you've got your engine plumbed makes this guessing game just that.  A picture speaks a thousand words.  2 pictures (one on the left side, one on the right) would be equal to two thousand words.

[Mytwojeeps2020]

Scoutpilot: Thanks for your reply. When I changed the oil two weeks ago, there was no sign of sludge.

Rus: Thanks for the pics! I have the Plain Valve Cover, as you described. I was wrong in my first post: the spark plug wires are just attached to a mount. There is no PCV valve incorporated into it.


I think I'd better end this tread at this point until I gather more info/pictures. My Jeep is stored 60 miles from here, and I can't get back to it for a week or so.

Many thanks for all the help! I'll be back in touch.

[Mytwojeeps2020]

Ok, I’m back with pics (and more information)!

This Jeep has been in the family since 1970.

I have good reason to believe the PCV valve on this 1964 engine has never been replaced.

It’s never been much of a highway Jeep; mainly, a wood’s runner.

I now have some pics of my PCV plumbing, and I’ve attached them here.

Pic 1: PCV connection from the engine
Pic 2: The PCV line connecting into the T-connection
Pic 3: The left side line from the T was crimped off (vacuum wiper never used)
Pic 4: The PVC line connecting underneath the carb.

I’m not an engine person, but I did put a wrench on the PCV valve, and it turns easily.

Going back to my original problem, I’m thing the PCV valve is clogged and the engine is forcing oil up the oil filler tube and into the air bath filter.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

[athawk11]

You replaced the hoses.  If the old hoses leaked air, then a previously clogged PCV valve would not be exposed.

You changed the oil.  Old sludge could have been knocked loose and got sucked into the PCV valve or tubes, thus clogging it up.

The pinched off tube was done because you no longer run a dual vacuum fuel pump.  Leave the crimp as is.

I would remove the PCV valve, tubes and cone into the lower valve cover and thoroughly clean them all.  The PCV valve comes apart.  There is a small spring and a little orifice blocker inside.  Very simple component.  Reassemble, then take it for a spin. 

[Rus Curtis]

M2J,
Great detail on the images.  This will help everyone to possibly help solve this.  The fact you don't have a fitting/hose on the top of your valve cover eliminates one theory I had.  So, now on to what else it might be.

1st picture:  Paint matches, so can we assume that PCV has been there forever.  Single stage fuel pump so no need for extra vacuum plumbing.  When disassembling the PCV valve, you should find a cone shaped insert and spring inside.  Clean all of that and reassemble in correct order.

https://www.cj3b.info/Tech/PCV.html

2nd picture:  With the vacuum "T" having remnants of a dual vacuum pump fitting, can we assume the single stage fuel pump was swapped in at some point?

3rd picture:  Teflon on the threads to hopefully ensure seal.  While crimping a line like this could work in a pinch...(see what I did there?)....  I would probably have looked for a threaded cap at some point.  BUT if it's not leaking, don't bother it. 

4th picture:  Solex carb?  The vacuum line is connected to the intake manifold port.  In this image, the hose from the oil filler tube to breather is disconnected.

At this point, I think we'd need to go back to Scoutpilot's suggestion.  Has the PCV valve been removed and cleaned?  While doing that, blow the lines to see if they're clear (high pressure not needed unless blocked perhaps - just looking for unrestricted flow).  If I were doing this, I would connect a rubber hose section to the straight tube going into the "T" fitting (after PCV valve is removed) and use lung pressure to blow for the test.  This would be a great time to use some liquid soap (or steal some of your kids bubble making solution) on all the fittings AND that crimped end to check for leaks.  Disconnect the intake manifold before in case there's crap in the line - no need to push that into the engine, plus then it can be plugged (assistant mechanic's finger) to do the bubble check.

If there's blockage or leaks, there may be the possibility of vapor/sludge/oil working its way to the air breather via that one lone hose (that crankcase pressure has to go somewhere).

I had a lot of foamy sludge build up in my filler neck until I fixed the oil filler cap seal and installed a working PCV valve.


**What hawk said above!**  (takes me a while to type)

[Mytwojeeps2020]

Rus, I've reposted some of your note. My replies are in Upper Case.

2nd picture:  With the vacuum "T" having remnants of a dual vacuum pump fitting, can we assume the single stage fuel pump was swapped in at some point? POSSIBLY, NO FAMILY MEMORY OF THE OLD GAS PUMP. WHEN WE GOT THE JEEP, USED, IN 1970, IT HAD BEEN "WELL-USED". THE DRIVER'S SIDE WIPER HAS NEVER BEEN CONNECTED. THE SINGLE STAGE FUEL PUMP IN THE PHOTO HAS BEEN REPLACED AT LEAST TWICE - ALWAYS WITH A SINGLE STAGE.

3rd picture:  Teflon on the threads to hopefully ensure seal.  While crimping a line like this could work in a pinch...(see what I did there?)....  I would probably have looked for a threaded cap at some point.  BUT if it's not leaking, don't bother it. 10-4

4th picture:  Solex carb? YES. I REPLACED THIS A YEAR OR SO AGO The vacuum line is connected to the intake manifold port.  In this image, the hose from the oil filler tube to breather is disconnected. WHEN I TOOK THAT PHOTO, I HAD REMOVED THE OIL BATH CLEANER (AND HOSE TO THE OIL FILLER TUBE) FOR DEGREASING.

At this point, I think we'd need to go back to Scoutpilot's suggestion.  Has the PCV valve been removed and cleaned? NEVER, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. TO BE TRUTHFUL, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT A PCV VALVE WAS UNTIL I STARTED RESEARCHING IT ON THIS FORUM. While doing that, blow the lines to see if they're clear (high pressure not needed unless blocked perhaps - just looking for unrestricted flow).  If I were doing this, I would connect a rubber hose section to the straight tube going into the "T" fitting (after PCV valve is removed) and use lung pressure to blow for the test. YES, THANKS, I WILL TRY THIS. IT MIGHT SAVE ME THE TROUBLE OF REPLACING THE LINE BETWEEN THE PCV AND INTAKE MANIFOLD.  This would be a great time to use some liquid soap (or steal some of your kids bubble making solution) on all the fittings AND that crimped end to check for leaks.  Disconnect the intake manifold before in case there's crap in the line - no need to push that into the engine, plus then it can be plugged (assistant mechanic's finger) to do the bubble check. 10-4

If there's blockage or leaks, there may be the possibility of vapor/sludge/oil working its way to the air breather via that one lone hose (that crankcase pressure has to go somewhere).

I had a lot of foamy sludge build up in my filler neck until I fixed the oil filler cap seal and installed a working PCV valve.



A few extra questions, please:

1.     It looks like I have to take the T Connection off first in order to unscrew the PCV valve. Is this correct?

2.    I have a feeling that after five decades the T connection will not sustain disassembly, but will break off (but I’ll remain hopeful with some PB Blaster). If it breaks, is that just regular brake line that runs from the PCV valve to the intake manifold?


3.   While I'm at it, should I remove (for cleaning) the slide valve cover breather and the brass fitting that attaches it to the PCV valve? If I do, it looks like I’ll have to unscrew the bolt that goes through the center of the breather cup and into the block. HOWEVER, from the mechanical drawings, it looks like that bolt goes well into the block. I don’t want to mess with that if it’s likely I’ll screw up the engine. Your thoughts?

MANY THANKS, FOLKS. I APPRECIATE EVERY BIT OF YOUR HELP!.
John

[athawk11]

You can leave the brass-T alone if you’re worried about breaking it.  Unscrew the line that crosses in front of the engine.  Now pull the one bolt out of the valve cover that penetrates the cup.  This will free up the whole assembly.  The valve cover bolt is long, but only because it has to reach the hole on the other side of the valve chamber.  You can’t mess anything up by removing it.

From there, you can probably clean that whole assembly without pulling it apart using a pipe cleaner and some brake fluid. I would still separate the PCV valve and clean up the interior pieces of it.
 
The rest of the tubes are typical brake lines found at your favorite auto parts store, but they can be cleaned up if the threads on the connector ends aren’t all chewed up.

[scoutpilot]

athawk gives you a good start. If I was doing it, I would disassemble the entire unit from the intake manifold starting at the manifold side of the 'T' and from the 'T' back to the cup. He's right in that the screw is long, but it is pointed to help locate that hole deep inside. It won't be a piece of cake to get it started and you probably will have to cut a new gasket for the cup. Start your reassembly with the cup. Here are some photos to help you.

[Rus Curtis]

A few extra questions, please:

1.     It looks like I have to take the T Connection off first in order to unscrew the PCV valve. Is this correct?

2.    I have a feeling that after five decades the T connection will not sustain disassembly, but will break off (but I’ll remain hopeful with some PB Blaster). If it breaks, is that just regular brake line that runs from the PCV valve to the intake manifold?


3.   While I'm at it, should I remove (for cleaning) the slide valve cover breather and the brass fitting that attaches it to the PCV valve? If I do, it looks like I’ll have to unscrew the bolt that goes through the center of the breather cup and into the block. HOWEVER, from the mechanical drawings, it looks like that bolt goes well into the block. I don’t want to mess with that if it’s likely I’ll screw up the engine. Your thoughts?

MANY THANKS, FOLKS. I APPRECIATE EVERY BIT OF YOUR HELP!.
John

I'm still having to log out, read, then post.  The others are getting you squared away.  Good.

1. Honestly, I've never removed, cleaned and installed a stock PCV valve.  Mine was empty.  I'd been running for a long time with disposable type (clipped it into rubber hose segments and changed it out when serviced), so hawks explanation helps me out too.  I was kinda wondering how others did it.

2. The lines are more fragile than that T fitting. penetrant/soak if it doesn't budge (you only have one side).  Taking off the vacuum that crosses the front towards the passenger side is what I was thinking too.  That vacuum line is the same as 1/4" fuel line.  I've replaced all mine and had to bend them myself (without an old one to use as a pattern).  Good times.

3.  What they said.

[Mytwojeeps2020]

Thanks, all, for pointing me in the right direction!

I can't get back to where my Jeep is stored for another two weeks.  Then, I plan to do some surgery.  I'll let you folks know what happens.

Again, MANY thanks!

[Mytwojeeps2020]

Ok, I’m finally back with more info.

I replaced the PCV valve and the PCV line that goes to the intake manifold.

Same thing occurs: after starting it it runs very rough and oil is still being ejected from the oil filler tube back to the air bath filter. The PCV must not have been the issue.

I sampled some oil from my oil pan. It’s black as coal (the oil and filter were changed about 20 minutes running time ago), and the oil has gas in it. I put a few drops on the floor and lit a match - it instantly ignighted).

Radiator fluid is a bit low, but doesn’t appear to be much.

I’m at a complete loss. Not being mechanically inclined, I’m thinking a rebuild might be in order.

Your thoughts, kind friends?