My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Engine compartment => Topic started by: aboyandhisdog on November 09, 2019, 06:20:52 PM
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How do you guys pre oil your engines before start up of a newly rebuilt engine? I don't have a pre-oiler...is it necessary? Thank you.
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The rebuild shop loaned me a tank that I put oil in and pressured it with air. Then I hooked it into the oil pressure gauge port and opened the valve to force the oil into the engine. When I started the engine the oil pressure came right up. The F head is still running like a top.
Tom
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I used the same port but used a large syringe.
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I have a fluid transfer pump and wondered if that would move the oil into all the right places. It doesn't generate much pressure but it will move oil from a jug in or out of an engine or transmission. Think it is worth a shot?
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did any of you pack the oil pump with vasiline ? i'm in the middle of doing mine now. going to take the pump cover off and fill it, tryed hand cranking, and hit the starter. but no pressure :(
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did any of you pack the oil pump with vasiline ? i'm in the middle of doing mine now. going to take the pump cover off and fill it, tryed hand cranking, and hit the starter. but no pressure :(
Man, I never heard of anything like that. What would be the point...wouldn't the vaseline inhibit the flow of oil quickly which is what we want?
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Tom, After an oil change in the '47 2A that I had in high school the pump would not suck oil from the pan so no oil pressure. The Jeep did not have an oil filter. I would pack the pump with grease and get oil pressure quickly. I know now that grease was not the best thing to use. Vaseline or something like it would also get the oil flowing quickly and brake down with the engine heat or at least flow better than grease.
I never pulled the pan on that Jeep but can imagine there would be a layer of grease on the bottom.
Tom
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Thanks, Tom. I hadn't planned on learning anything today...you kind of threw a wrench into my plans!
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Man, I never heard of anything like that. What would be the point...wouldn't the Vaseline inhibit the flow of oil quickly which is what we want?
without something more viscous than air in the pump, the gears just spin...the pump is not self priming. The Vaseline is thick enough to allow the pump to "suck", provides a minimum of lubrication, and melts at very low temps so it does it's job, melts, and gets out of the way. Think of it as assembly lube. Grease is not recommended since at start up temps it can block small passage ways and take time to clear waiting for operating temps (and even then maybe not).
I've used the Vaseline and the syringe methods both with success, fwiw.
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Man, I never heard of anything like that. What would be the point...wouldn't the Vaseline inhibit the flow of oil quickly which is what we want?
without something more viscous than air in the pump, the gears just spin...the pump is not self priming. The Vaseline is thick enough to allow the pump to "suck", provides a minimum of lubrication, and melts at very low temps so it does it's job, melts, and gets out of the way. Think of it as assembly lube. Grease is not recommended since at start up temps it can block small passage ways and take time to clear waiting for operating temps (and even then maybe not).
I've used the Vaseline and the syringe methods both with success, fwiw.
i installed a new oil gauge on the engine this week. i hit to the key to the starter quick and had 0 psi. fuel pump should be here today. i'll have to open up the pump and fill it, and try again. got syringes at tsc pretty cheap, the parts stores wanted 30-45 $ there not the same but for a one time use it will work.
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I packed the pump with vasoline, got a hand pump oil can, and used it to put in over a quart in to the side gallery were the oil psi sender goes, pulled the plugs. hit the key, starter turned for a min, no psi. repeated these steps. 4 times. pulled the valve cover no oil up top.
when I prime the pump, should it be in or out of the block?
what did I miss ?? I have 2 quarts of oil threw the side gallery, and cranked it 5 or 6 times. no psi, no oil on top. could there be some sort of other issue ?
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You could pull the cap off the distributor to verify the rotor is spinning. This means the oil pump is spinning (to eliminate one possible problem).
when I prime the pump, should it be in or out of the block?
what did I miss ?? I have 2 quarts of oil threw the side gallery, and cranked it 5 or 6 times. no psi, no oil on top. could there be some sort of other issue ?
Packing a pump is done off the engine, but when you prime by squirting oil in the gallery, that's with the pump installed - ready to spin (I don't know if you'd need to do both since each should accomplish the same thing). When you get your oil changed the pump is already primed with a residual amount of oil that didn't drain out with the oil change.
The only way a pump can draw oil up out of the pan is if the float is submerged and its connection to the bottom of the block sealed. You stated 2 qts through the side port. If you were ready to crank that should mean you have 6 qts total in the engine? If there's no oil in the pan, you'd get a burp of pressure and then go back to zero when the pump pushed that small amount out into the gallery.
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i pulled the dist cap, as i cranked with the key, the dist never moved ( i cryed a tad ) pulled the pump and 3 teeth were missing. then i just sat down for a bit. engine is apart ( all 3 teeth are accounted for ) old oil pump gear is off, got a used oil pump with a gear. any tips to put it on, seems very tite started to tap it on didn't feel rite.
i will pre prime the pump in a bucket of oil this time no vaseline :'(
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Well, I'm "glad" you found the problem. At least you now know what you're dealing with.
So far, the pump is out, the engine has been cranked several times.
I would personally verify the timing gear marks up front are set and then do the entire pump installation from there. Others may have a better way.
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Be sure to check the camshaft gear very carefully, oil pumps have been known to lock and tear teeth off of the oil pump drive gear on the camshaft. Is this a new pump? A Melling? They have been notorious for this. BW
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pump was o.e. i have a spare engine, i pulled that oil pump gear and swaped it over to mine.
still no psi. i have veriflyed all the oil plugs exp for the one under the from cover. oil galley in the rear is 3/4 quart full. no psi on the gauge ( thats were i'm put the oil in the block ) no oil in the valve train ( i have the side cover off so i can see that it's dry )
thoughts ?
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This is an F-head, correct? Not that it matters. You will not see any oil in the exhaust valve chamber until the engine starts. Oil is not delivered there, it is only splashed/sprayed. The intake valve train on top of the head is pressure oiled. When you get the oiling system to work, you should see oil up there. If you were able to build any pressure at all with your oil can, you might get some to go upstairs. I don’t know. If the oil is being dumped somewhere or for whatever reason it is easier for the oil to go somewhere rather than upstairs, that’s where it will go. At this point, it might be worthwhile to install a pump with no gear and spin it up as you have with Chevys in the past. If that doesn’t make any pressure, the oil is certainly being dumped somewhere. Or the pump is getting air rather than oil. Just a thought. BW
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This is an F-head, correct? Not that it matters. You will not see any oil in the exhaust valve chamber until the engine starts. Oil is not delivered there, it is only splashed/sprayed. The intake valve train on top of the head is pressure oiled. When you get the oiling system to work, you should see oil up there. If you were able to build any pressure at all with your oil can, you might get some to go upstairs. I don’t know. If the oil is being dumped somewhere or for whatever reason it is easier for the oil to go somewhere rather than upstairs, that’s where it will go. At this point, it might be worthwhile to install a pump with no gear and spin it up as you have with Chevys in the past. If that doesn’t make any pressure, the oil is certainly being dumped somewhere. Or the pump is getting air rather than oil. Just a thought. BW
yes, it's a f head. i dropped the pan, and can confirm that the oil plugs are in the bottom end of the block ( by the oil pump ) and the out side plugs are in as well.( no oil leaks) i can't confirm the front oil plug behind the timing cover. i'm not quite ready to pull that apart to check just yet. i do have a spare engine / oil pump.( i used that spare pump gear to replace the broken gear on the pump that just broke) thats a great idea ! :D use the spare pump with no gear, and pump oil with a drill. gotta get the spare pump sealed up, and find a screw driver long enough to put in the drill and see what ticks !!!!
thanks
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There seems to be a lot of this going around lately. A person on the CJ2APage forum was fighting the same thing, and now Tom seems to be having the same trouble.
The guy on the CJ2A page found that his timing gear oil spray nozzle was not installed. This is not the first I've heard of this over the years, as well as internal oil galley plugs being left out.
After all you've done, and you've verified that the internal plugs are in place (those you can see with the pan removed, anyway) I would say that it's about time to pull the front cover and look for that nozzle. If you still have the pan off, you could inject some oil into the main galley and see if it comes gushing out of the front cover.
These are very simple oiling systems and this is becoming a very common problem, and the finding and the solution are almost always the same. BW
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BW, I spoke to my engine builder today and he said that, although it's a long shot, there would be a remote possibility that the oil galley plug(s) could have been left out. Can you tell me what this means and why would they have been removed in the first place? I mean, the engine worked great when I took it to him. Why would he have removed said plugs?
Now then, I have never heard of a timing gear spray nozzle. I had my timing gear cover off once and never saw anything that remotely looked like a nozzle. Just the hole in the cover where the oil hose attaches. There is supposed to be some kind of a nozzle there? How would that affect oil pressure?
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Wow! Two different threads running with similar issues! Not a good week for oil pressure!
There is some good info on the 3B Page in the Engine Rebuild article. There is an image showing where to look for the nozzle (it should be in the same spot on the L-head since it needs to squirt directly at where the gears mesh):
https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild7.html
And also, check the oil float (that round flat pickup hanging down into the oil pan. It should have a gasket so it can pull the oil up and into the gallery to the pump.
The plugs, IIRC, look the same inside and out (location of some of those holes inside):
https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild2.html
Location of two external plugs on driver's side:
https://cj3b.info/Photos/Tech/HurricaneSideGrayscale.JPG
Also some good images here:
https://www.cj3apage.com/index/My_1950/rebuilding_the_l134.htm
Not sure if this will help but a close look to verify some things will help a lot to eliminate a few things.
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Good stuff, Rus. Thank you. I was hoping to avoid pulling the pan, but it is looking like I may have to do that next.
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BW, I spoke to my engine builder today and he said that, although it's a long shot, there would be a remote possibility that the oil galley plug(s) could have been left out. Can you tell me what this means and why would they have been removed in the first place? I mean, the engine worked great when I took it to him. Why would he have removed said plugs?
Now then, I have never heard of a timing gear spray nozzle. I had my timing gear cover off once and never saw anything that remotely looked like a nozzle. Just the hole in the cover where the oil hose attaches. There is supposed to be some kind of a nozzle there? How would that affect oil pressure?
The oil galley plugs are always removed from a block in the re-build (another example of the difference between a rebuild and an overhaul) process so that the galley passages can be cleaned out.
Installation of the timing gear oil jet (nozzle) is covered on page 49, paragraph D-84, in the Service Manual for Universal Jeep Vehicles. The oil jet can be seen in the picture of the timing gears on page 48, although if you didn't know it was there, you wouldn't recognize it. You do have a service manual, don't you? :)
The nozzle, or jet, is installed in the front end of the main oil galley, and if left out, will dump all the oil from the pump into the front cover and back into the oil pan. Oil returned from the oil filter is surely a source of lube for the timing gears, but it is a supplemental source, not the primary one. The timing gears can live without it, as the old practice of blocking or removing the oil filter shows. The oil jet is the primary source of oil to the timing gears.
BW
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Thanks, BW. Good explanation, helps a lot! I guess I did know about that timing gear oil jet - the word "nozzle" threw me off a bit. As for the galley plugs, I learned something new today!
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The "no oil pressure" mystery has been solved. The engine builder did, in fact, leave out one galley plug. Fortunately no dire consequences apparent, as she is purring like a kitten. Supposed to warm up in a day or two so I can get it out on the road for the maiden voyage. Thanks to everybody who helped with this.
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Success!
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BW, I spoke to my engine builder today and he said that, although it's a long shot, there would be a remote possibility that the oil galley plug(s) could have been left out. Can you tell me what this means and why would they have been removed in the first place? I mean, the engine worked great when I took it to him. Why would he have removed said plugs?
Now then, I have never heard of a timing gear spray nozzle. I had my timing gear cover off once and never saw anything that remotely looked like a nozzle. Just the hole in the cover where the oil hose attaches. There is supposed to be some kind of a nozzle there? How would that affect oil pressure?
yes, i have pulled the oil pan, and other parts to verify the oil plugs are in, even the front one behind the motor mount plate. they reduced the spray nozzle for the timing gears to help build oil psi
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Wow! Two different threads running with similar issues! Not a good week for oil pressure!
There is some good info on the 3B Page in the Engine Rebuild article. There is an image showing where to look for the nozzle (it should be in the same spot on the L-head since it needs to squirt directly at where the gears mesh):
https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild7.html
And also, check the oil float (that round flat pickup hanging down into the oil pan. It should have a gasket so it can pull the oil up and into the gallery to the pump.
The plugs, IIRC, look the same inside and out (location of some of those holes inside):
https://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild2.html
Location of two external plugs on driver's side:
https://cj3b.info/Photos/Tech/HurricaneSideGrayscale.JPG
Also some good images here:
https://www.cj3apage.com/index/My_1950/rebuilding_the_l134.htm
Not sure if this will help but a close look to verify some things will help a lot to eliminate a few things.
were to start.. :o
i swapped pumps ( i have a spare engine on a stand to steal parts from ) the spare pump has no drive gear ( broke the org gear , so i stole for the org pump :'( ) with the spare pump in and no gear i drive it with a drill. ( rev is the direction i want to go ? ) i used a hand oil pump and put oil in the rear galley were the oil psi gauge plugs in, poured oil in to the filter. ran the drill for 30 seconds natta. i dropped the pan and checked for oil plugs, both are there in the bottom near the pick up. pull the fuel pump, and oil line that hides behind the fuel pump. oil is coming out the hose from the filter. pulled the brass 90 and verified the plug in the front of the block.
so on a crazy note, i put shop air 40 psi in the rear galley, air went down threw the pump an saw the pump turn,( have the side cover off ) then herd the air gurgle in to the oil pan :( so then i put oil in the rear galley and put 30 psi of shop air in the galley ( had the drill in the pump so it didn't turn, air still went down to the oil pan and gurgled again.
so in the need for knowledge of how this works ! i put air the spare block, same hole 40psi. ( had the oil pump spot covered with tape ) pushed the air in, air did not go to the pump ! :o it was in side the block some were, got brake cleaner, put it in the oil galley, and added air. it came out the rear crank main.
now what ? pull the bottom end ? :'(
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The "no oil pressure" mystery has been solved. The engine builder did, in fact, leave out one galley plug. Fortunately no dire consequences apparent, as she is purring like a kitten. Supposed to warm up in a day or two so I can get it out on the road for the maiden voyage. Thanks to everybody who helped with this.
congrats :) which one did he leave out ? if you know by chance ?
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If I remember correctly, he said it was the one that is a bit harder to see. Hope this makes sense.
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long story be short, i put in another pump with out a gear, and used a drill to turn it. it was all ok . the gauge i had got at auto zone wasn't working. so i spent 30-40 days dealing with a bad gauge. hope to make fire today. thanks to every one who helped.
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bad equipment = frustration!
Glad you got it figured out!
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scene my last post i was able to make pressure. i had the gear off the pump, and turned it with a drill took 30 seconds or longer to make pressure, out the pump back in, and no psi. the pump was dry.
i made a tool a 5/8th fine thread bolt to go in place on the over pressure cap, with a 1/8" hole to use a hand pump oil can to put oil in to the pump, and still notta.
the oil pan is down, and i heated up the oil pick up, as per a tip i got the other day. oil sticks to the screen, and cloggs it. so the pump can't suck up any oil. and why when using the drill it had the delay before i had pressure..... so i had 2 table spoons of a tar like substance drain out, and a lot of smoke ! once the pan is up, and i hit the key i'll let ya know how it went.
fyi i started this in jan , might sell or trade it soon ? if i can't get pressure
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Well, that is discouraging. You mentioned the oil pick-up. Are you sure it's clean? Many of us have horror stories about the crap we find in the screen.
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I had to rebuild mine.
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Well, that is discouraging. You mentioned the oil pick-up. Are you sure it's clean? Many of us have horror stories about the crap we find in the screen.
when i hold it up to the light i can see thru it, so i'd say yes.