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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Trouble down low (Read 2798 times)
 
macrisel
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Trouble down low
05/05/13 at 02:40:02
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So to catch everyone up on what has been happening in my fun filled Willy adventure, my annoying hard starting issue has turned into a major problem.  My fuel pump was dumping gas into the crankcase thinning the oil.  What tipped me off to this was the engine started knocking pretty bad down low and when I drained the oil, it was about as thick as water.
When I dropped the pan and pulled the rod cap off, here is what I found on #4 rod..

The crank looks just as bad and will need to be turned or at the very least polished.  I have the motor ready to pull out tomorrow, but here is my $5000 question.......How much should I tear the motor down?
Can I get away with just taking the crank out?  I would leave the pistons, valves, cam, oil pump, distributer in and the head on and give everything a good cleaning.
Or.....should I tear everything down to the bare block?  The motor has less than 10 hours on it since I completely rebuilt it the first time.. Cry

Needless to say, it has not been a good weekend at my farm.  Anyone who has been following my build knows I was on final assembly and only a couple of weeks from being completely back together.  I was planning putting on new tailgate chains this weekend.....not tearing out the motor.. Embarrassed
« Last Edit: 05/05/13 at 02:41:33 by macrisel »  
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calvinhunt
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #1 - 05/05/13 at 05:15:44
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So sorry to learn of your disappointing news.  There have been a few of us go through similar situations.  You were not yet on board the 3A Page 5 years ago when I was reporting my experience.  After just under 1000 miles (which was less than just one summer) my engine did require the complete disassembly and reassembly you are hoping you will not have to do.  I don't feel qualified to give the advice you are seeking--to give it a good cleaning or a complete tear down.  I will be watching to see what those more in-the-know end up suggesting that you do.  I do wish you well.
« Last Edit: 05/05/13 at 12:47:30 by calvinhunt »  

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garage gnome
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #2 - 05/05/13 at 10:07:21
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I would pull the head also and check the cylinders. I'm sure the cam is fine. Maybe just pull the side cover off and take a look. But yes, re-do the crank.
  

Nate in Western MA 1953 3A #3268, The Jalopy, '47 2A Wheelin' rig, '49 3A, #37071, unmolested, bone stock named Ted
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #3 - 05/05/13 at 13:07:36
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Very sorry to hear about your setback.
  I would do as Nate suggests and pull the head, inspect cylinders, make sure the valves operate freely and recheck valve clearance. If everything ckecks out, do the crank and run it.
  Good luck
  

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macrisel
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #4 - 05/05/13 at 15:35:25
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I know there was a topic with the best head gasket and rear main seals to use, but I can't find it.

Does anyone have those brand and part numbers handy for the head gasket, rear main seal, and the rod and main bearing brand to use?  Last time I used Federal Mogul for the bearings, but I'm a little hesitant to use them again since they didn't stand up as well as I think they should have........
  
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #5 - 05/05/13 at 23:45:59
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I think they are the only maker of bearings for the Lheads. The gasket from Walcks works very well.
  

Nate in Western MA 1953 3A #3268, The Jalopy, '47 2A Wheelin' rig, '49 3A, #37071, unmolested, bone stock named Ted
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macrisel
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #6 - 05/06/13 at 02:03:04
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Well, time for full disclosure.  I will confess my biggest mistake yet in order to (hopefully) save someone else the problem in the future.

I pulled my engine today and pulled the crank out.  When I got the crank out, I noticed that the rear main bearing was showing some wear also.  In addition, the rear main seal was looking pretty bad.....as in bad enough you would think it had 5000 hours on it, not 5.  As I was sitting there looking at them, my brother-in-law (a tractor mechanic) pointed at the rear main bearing and said, "Look at that, the bearing is made wrong.  It has the oil hole in the wrong location and there is no place for the oil to get to the crank."

Just then, my world started spinning and I started to get a little light-headed.  I thought back to several topics I read on this very website regarding installing main bearings.  Of course, I did not find this forum and read these topics until months AFTER I had rebuilt my motor.  What were these postings and topics about you ask???

Well, they had to do with installing the rear main bearing and reversing the top and bottom bearing.

I slowly walked over to the rear main cap and looked inside.  Sure enough, that one also had the "oil hole in the wrong location."  I had made a bonehead mistake when I put the crank in and reversed the top and bottom bearings.  Shocked

Now it made sense why my #4 rod bearing was ate up and the others were not that bad.  It also made sense why my oil pressure always seemed high (around 60lbs).  Oil was stopped right behind the oil pressure gage outlet and not getting to #3 main bearing and #4 rod bearing.  I had just assumed it was because it was a fresh rebuild.  My hard starting when warm could even be related to this.  If enough heat was building up back there, I would assume the bearings and crank were expanding and making a pretty tight fit....causing the engine to be harder to turn over when warm.  Heck, it may even be the reason it is hard to shift into 2nd gear. (Ok, probably not but I guy can dream.)

So there you go.  I'm a big dumb animal.  When I built the motor in March of 2008, I was going through a rough patch in my life but it is still an important detail I should have paid more attention to.

As in everything in life, there is a reason for things happening when and were they do.  I am thankful the Lord decided to point out my mistake to me while the jeep was sitting in my garage and not in the middle of a parade or trail ride or car show.  I'm pretty sure if that happened I would not be getting out with just turning the crank and replacing some bearings. Wink  I'm also thankful to everyone on here who convinced me to drop the pan and pull a rod cap to check things out.  While the fuel pump may not have been the root cause, it definitely started me down the path that led me here.
My opinion of Federal Mogul bearings has been restored also.  Obviously, they are tough enough to run for a pretty good while.....even when they are not getting any lubrication.  Cool

Lets see where the next road takes me!
  
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #7 - 05/06/13 at 02:09:42
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It is sometime hard to be humble......
Mark, you did it with grace.


All the best

Zeke
  

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calvinhunt
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #8 - 05/06/13 at 05:08:54
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macrisel wrote on 05/06/13 at 02:03:04:
Heck, it may even be the reason it is hard to shift into 2nd gear. (Ok, probably not but I guy can dream.)

If you are having trouble shifting into 2nd gear, while the engine is out may be the best time to correct that problem as well.  If that's a problem you don't want to live with it's easier to get to it now than it will be once you're up and running again. 
I wasn't going to bring it up again, but it was when I had to pull my engine out before the end of that first summer that I saw the input shaft to the transmission was too "wobbly".  A little further investigation indicated I needed to redo the tranny as well.  I was very glad to do them both at the same time.
Practice makes perfect (I hope).  It's been 5 years and they're both still going strong.  I get about 1000 miles each summer. 
Again, good luck.
« Last Edit: 05/06/13 at 05:13:38 by calvinhunt »  

Calvin
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #9 - 05/06/13 at 12:21:32
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Lessons learned.  I had to pull a Ford 300 apart last year after changing out the rod bearings.  It was hard to turn over and it wouldn’t start too great. I inadvertently had a couple of rod bearing pairs installed reversed.  In the end it was more time, gaskets and bearings.  It runs just fine now.  Not many of us do this as a hobby with out some kind of casual mistake.

Best of luck,
Steve
  
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #10 - 05/06/13 at 16:32:48
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Mac, welcome to the "done did another oops club". Don't be too hard on yourself.  I'm an charter member, I'm convinced that at least one of my engine rebuilds was at least mostly my fault!!!
  

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macrisel
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #11 - 05/07/13 at 16:46:17
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Thanks everyone for the encouragement!
Calvin,
I REALLY thought about pulling the transmission at this time also and rebuilding it also.  There were two things that stopped me:
1.  I have two local car shows in a month.  I have been very involved with organizing one of them and would really like to have my jeep there.  I know, not a really good reason but I've caught a large amount of grief from some of the other club members for "never having my jeep done." Roll Eyes  My painter also was really wanting my jeep to be there to show off his paint job.  I had promised him I would do my best to make it there.  He has put in an unreal amount of time and effort on the tub and I really want for him to get his props...

2.  I think I just bought a 1947 Willys truck!  It has been sitting at a neighbors house for years and I have been bugging him to sell it to me and he finally broke down last weekend and said he would.  I'm fairly certain it still has the original L134 and T90 in it.  If so, I can pull that transmission and rebuild it while I limp by on mine.  Or, if that tranny is in decent shape already I'll swap it in the jeep and rebuild the original as time permits.  Before my crank troubles, I was entertaining the idea of testing the truck out this weekend.... Embarrassed
  
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #12 - 05/07/13 at 21:11:05
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Did the oil have metal in it? If it did then there may be metal in the oil galley and it went through the cam and other main and crank bearings. If there are signs of metal going through the other bearings at least pull the cam and flush the oil galley and maybe replace the front cam bushing.
  
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calvinhunt
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #13 - 05/08/13 at 03:42:56
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Hey mac,
I can see that you've got you hands full with the engine and other obligations, and a good plan ahead for the tranny.  Press on my friend. And again, good luck.
  

Calvin
Santa Clara, Utah
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macrisel
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Re: Trouble down low
Reply #14 - 05/22/13 at 14:07:12
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So I finally received my crank back from the shop and all my parts and pieces last Thursday....then left town for a weekend with the family.  Yesterday I sneaked away from the office early and managed to get the motor back together last night.



I hope to have the motor put back in by the end of the week.  It really kills me to not pull the T-90 and rebuild it now with the motor out, but I just don't think I'll have enough time to finish it and the 1000 other little odds and ends on the jeep before our car show on June 15th.  Oh well, it will give me an excuse to be in the shop for the month of July!  Wink

Oh, don't mind the globs of orange/white paint on the timing cover.  My Dad was a little overzelous "making the timing mark easier to see."  I can't turn my back on him for a second! Shocked
  
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