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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Head gasket replacement woes now an engine rebuild (Read 34182 times)
 
Chasm
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #30 - 06/05/12 at 19:25:14
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Okay, here is one of the pics of my original L-head with the cracks I was talking about. Yes, the gasket material is still there, but you can see the cracks came right through it...
  

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Carls_jeep
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #31 - 06/06/12 at 01:30:08
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It's a hard call for sure. If the combustion chambers seal how can the water get into them from the area outside the cyl. seals? I don't see any indication of leakage to the cylinders in your photo. The leak, if it occurs, will be to the side of the block. A water leak to the cylinders will happen when the head gasket blows around the combustion chamber seal. Then it will blow compression into the cooling system and when the engine is off and pressure builds in the cooling system the water will follow the path back into the cylinder.

That condition can only happen if the head gasket blows at the cylinder seal ring on the head gasket.

It would have been better to see a photo with the head gasket and then without to analyze what happened. How many places were cracked in your block?

According to Carl Walck half the blocks they see for rebuilding are cracked, that means to find a block that is not cracked is very hard to do and even then there is no guarantee the block will not crack after you rebuild it. They repair the blocks that can be and use them.

Sean on the CJ2 site said that from a month after the block is cast at the foundry the block is machined and ready to assemble. That information was a death knoll to the L134 blocks. Cast iron has to be aged by letting it lay out in the weather for at least a few years to leach the acids and let it stress relieve. That means every engine they built was with a green cast iron block and probably the head as well.

The chance of finding a block without a crack somewhere or not needing a line bore for the mains and cam bores is like finding a needle in a hay stack. Chances are I could go through 5 blocks to find one uncracked one and there is no guarantee it won't crack next week in use.

If you tear these engines down and rebuild them without having the deck and head surfaced your asking for trouble. Remember it is a 60 year old block that has stress relieved it's self and is twisted and the likely hood of the deck surface and head ever sealing without being resurfaced is a real crap shoot at best.

The fact is I should have had the cam bores and main bores line bored but I choose not to. I still have a complete CJ2 engine and I will eventually tear it down and check it out. It may be a good block and if so I will build a short block for future use, at least I will prepare the block for use. 

There is one saving grace that I do. I don't tighten the radiator cap and I use a 160 deg thermostat. I also don't care if water leaks to the outside of the head and block as long as it stays out of the cylinders. Since I had the block surfaced and the head surfaced it should seal very good.  
« Last Edit: 06/06/12 at 01:40:47 by Carls_jeep »  
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Carls_jeep
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #32 - 06/06/12 at 01:50:16
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Today I set up on the block to bore it. After I refreshed my mind about the use of the boring bar I made a clean up cut to see where I was at and  Shocked OMG, the clean up cut was just over the .020" oversize bore. Well that sucks. I should have known better than to expect a cyl with .015" wear at the top to clean up at .020". After I got over the shock I looked lovingly at the pistons I took out of my original engine. They are .060" oversize and are starting to look real good for this engine. I doubt Auto Zone will take the new pistons back or even trade for .040" over but I will ask.

Chasm, I'm still thinking about what you said. When I get the tractor working again I may pull the CJ2 engine, tear it down and have it checked. I can still be boring this block for real or practice, which ever. As I understand it all the L134 blocks are the same, only the parts are different.

The hydraulics failed on the tractor last weekend and it would be my engine hoist among other things.

I'll have to excuse myself now, I'm going out in the shop and sit by the block and cry in my beer  Cry
« Last Edit: 06/06/12 at 02:02:43 by Carls_jeep »  
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Chasm
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #33 - 06/06/12 at 14:36:09
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Carl:
I feel for you. I went the route of pinning my original L-head and having it decked and so on. Cyls 2 & 3 were bored and sleeved due to bad scoring on their walls. The new sleeves prevented any coolant from passing through them. I always had issues with overheating and coolant getting in my oil. I chased the little gremlins all over that engine and replaced numerous head gaskets and even the head.

I wish I had a camera in hand to take some more pics of that old block, but was lucky to get a few with a cell phone.

Interesting observation: After the old block sat out in the weather for a couple weeks, the cracks became highlighted by a line of rust that extended past the end point of the cracks via visual observation by almost 1/2 inch! I believe my problem was the hot coolant being pushed up between the gasket and head... regardless of what type of gasket I used or how often I checked the torque on the head nuts.

I believe all of our 2A and 3A engines were experimental! Ever look at the casting marks? Looks like they were playing around with the recipe for their cast iron. Hmmm... let's see what happens if we add more chrome to this batch of blocks!  Huh
  

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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #34 - 06/06/12 at 15:40:30
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When the Jeep was designed and put into production for the war they were considered throwaway vehicles. From that point on there were few changes to them when they went to civilian production. I have been told the war time blocks are the same as the CJ2 and on as an L134. I don't know that to be fact but if it's so then the same war time mentality of throwaway was continued on through the L134's life. You have to remember that the need for vehicles at the end of WWII was very high so Willys had no time to age the blocks. I think the other auto manufacturers had the money and time to stock up for post war production where Willys didn't have that option so they continued doing the same old thing.

I went to Auto Zone this morning crying the blues but I left my guitar home. Well, it turned out they had no problem exchanging the .020" pistons for .040" pistons. They were the same price and will be here tomorrow.

When I get the tractor fixed I am pulling the engine from the parts Jeep and tearing it down. I want to know what I have and if I decide to have it magnafluxed I may end up using it. This is turning into one of those, "Geez, why the hell did I ever buy a Jeep" thoughts. Then I settle down and realize it was for the love of Jeeps and to use in the snow. As long as I can keep a laid back attitude about this I can have fun and being retired helps a whole lot toward that.
  
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #35 - 06/06/12 at 20:56:49
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Boy Carl,
Those are the same thoughts I was telling myself last summer when I struggeled with engine rebuilds, i can feel the energy.  Just keep telling yourself that you are enjoying this, and eventually you will !!! LOL

Todd
  

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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #36 - 06/11/12 at 20:34:06
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Today I finally got to bore all the holes out and next is to hone them. I found out that the #1 & 2 bores are siamesed  and #3 & 4 are siamesed. There is a water gap between #2 & 3 and it would be a lot better if water could circulate around all the cylinders. Fortunately they were thoughtful enough to put the exh valves and ports outside of the siamese cylinders and the intake valves between them.

I also measured the wall thickness as best I could and mine are about 3/16" with the bores .040" over but that's only measured in one place by the core plugs some people call freeze out plugs but they seldom come out when the block freezes. The thickness will vary from block to block and all around the cylinder.

When I get the cylinders honed out and the tractor fixed I will take the block to the barn and pressure wash it then brush out the oil galleys, spray it with WD40 and start building it.

Oh, the tractor, well, the hydraulics failed last week. When it rains, it pours.
« Last Edit: 06/11/12 at 20:37:40 by Carls_jeep »  
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #37 - 06/12/12 at 21:17:11
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is siamesed?  Thats a new one on me.
  

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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #38 - 06/13/12 at 02:00:52
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Siamesed means they are cast together with no gap between them. No water can go between #1 & 2 or # 3 & 4. That can cause over heating between those siamesed cylinders. What ever the water temp is in the engine it's hotter there.
  
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #39 - 06/20/12 at 17:37:12
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Update, I've had some interruptions like replacing pistons, tractor down and getting a hone among others. So I got the .040" over pistons, bored the cylinders, was given a Sunnen AN hone and bought some stones for it. I got the tractor hyd working again so I hauled the block to the pole barn to pressure wash it and paint it with rust protection primer. Then I relaxed with a whiskey and Coke while I watched the paint dry.



Today I have the block back on the engine stand and made a valve guide driver/installer. The large round part is a spacer to install the guides to the correct depth, 1" and 1 5/16". If you replace your valve guides be sure to get the correct guides. Some dealers sell only one length guide and that is not correct.

  
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #40 - 06/20/12 at 19:09:52
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Carl makes a very good point with this picture.  Remember....Safety first!
Always wear ear protection while drinking  Grin Grin Grin
  
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #41 - 06/20/12 at 20:09:33
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That's my radio head phones and it keeps me from hearing a helicopter when it falls on me. Grin

I was going right fine installing the valve guides and then, OH CRAP, I shattered the top of the fourth exh guide. Well, the truth is I knew it might happen but was hoping the tool would last longer. The soft metal driver expanded and cracked the top of the guide. I did update #2 by making a sleeve of tool steel and I installed the four intake guides with no issues. I had to drive the guide out from the bottom and that required another tool  Roll Eyes. Update #1 was when I realized I misjudged the shoulder to set the guide depth.  Embarrassed

I have another exh guide ordered and while waiting will proceed with cleaning the oil galleys and laying the crank. I have to dial indicate the bell housing before I do a full assembly so there will be a lot of putting together, measuring and taking apart. I'm sure glad this didn't happen in August. I knew this rebuild was not going to go fast. I'm starting to think I am to picky and think I am rebuilding a pocket watch instead of a Jeep engine.  Cry

« Last Edit: 06/21/12 at 02:05:26 by Carls_jeep »  
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calvinhunt
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #42 - 06/21/12 at 03:58:18
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Haven't I been told by a good source that when these Willys Jeeps were used in WWII they had a life expectancy of 90 days?  I would think that Rocketeer would be the authority on that.  Possibly that's where is heard it.  

With all the problems so many of us are having with our L-134 engines I wonder if they weren't built to be overhauled so many times and kept running for so many years.  

Good Luck, anyway Carl, and to all the rest who are trying to keep these old engines purring.

It looked just this good when I took it back out just one summer and 1000 miles later!

« Last Edit: 06/21/12 at 04:02:45 by calvinhunt »  

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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #43 - 07/21/12 at 02:13:45
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I am transferring a post from the old site.

The crank is laid in and plastigaged and the pistons assembled and punched in the holes and plastigaged and everything is good. One thing that puzzled me a bit is the wrist pin clamping bolt is on opposite side on two of the rods. I read the manual and it told how the slots in the piston goes opposite the oil hole in the rod and that makes the numbers on the rod go toward the cam. Then I picked up the old piston and rod assemblies and looked them over and noticed the wrist pin clamp bolts are on the cam side on #1 and #3 and the opposite side on #2 and #4. I am still wondering why Willys did that.  Huh That's a good way to get the rods in backwards as I see it. There have been a few things that I wondered why would they do it that way but it is what it is so I just move on along.

Tomorrow I will grind the valve seats and put the valves in. Maybe more if the seat grinding goes well.
« Last Edit: 07/21/12 at 02:15:06 by Carls_jeep »  
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Re: Head gasket replacement woes now an engine reb
Reply #44 - 07/21/12 at 02:35:00
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I covered the cyl bores and did a three angle seat grind, checked the valves for contact, assembled the springs and adjusted the valves yesterday. Today figured out how to time the lube pump so the distributor rotor is where I want it. Then I installed the head studs, sprayed the head gasket, put the gsk and head on and started torquing the nuts. I got to 60 ft lb and was almost through the pattern and  Shocked one of the stud threads went soft.  Cry ohhh that sick feeling I have had before when this happens.

I pulled the head, the gasket, the studs and cleaned the head and deck up, called Walcks and ordered 15 studs and nuts, called MSC and ordered 6 Keensert inserts. Tomorrow I will order another Victor 1023K head gasket and do a torque test on each head stud thread in the block to find any others that may fail. To be honest I was tempted to do that before I put the head on but thought, they all look good and I removed the studs from them when I had the block cleaned and checked. I should have listened to my inner feeling, something always goes wrong when I don't.

Well, I have a lot of things to do to it while waiting for the parts.
  
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