Water in the Oil

[GunnersWillys]

Ok, here it goes.  Kinda figure I know this one but could use confirmation without me offering an opinion.

'58 3B.  I've had some issues with white smoke off and on.  Replaced the head gasket 3 times over two years, third seems to have worked.  I haven't started it since June, at which time I checked fluids, gave it maybe 30 minutes run time, then put it away.  All was well.

Started it two days ago and ran it a bit in prep for some brake work, then checked fluids.  Oil was a murky mess, we all know that milkshake look.  Radiator took 3/4 of a gallon of water to top off.  Oil level was mid-stick in the sweet spot. 

I've always had some of the messy mayonnaise looking stuff under the oil cap.  The air filter bowl was almost overflowing with water/oil mix.  When you run it, steam seems to come out of the oil fill.

But, no white smoke out of the tailpipe.  Tiny bit of blue you have to struggle to see. 

I drained and replaced the oil yesterday, flushing it first with cheap clean oil and a little seafoam. 

Ran it a bit, no visible issue.

This morning the radiator was down maybe half an inch.  The oil looked ok.  Ran it for 15 minutes, oil now exhibiting some signs of water.  No longer pretty and clean. 

What happened, and what do I do next?  Thanks.

[Rus Curtis]

In my experience, the milky residue you see at the filler neck is most likely (was in my case) a faulty cap seal.  It was allowing air in.  Once that was fixed (doubled up the gaskets) and fixed the PCV system, no more milky stuff.  That steam coming out filler neck indicates a leak.  That may be where the water in your oil bath filter could be coming from, i.e. steam travelling back, condensing, collecting.  IF you've got a real good seal on your cap, that build up may also be from the steam escaping back towards the oil bath filter. 

The radiator leakage and oil contamination most likely is the head gasket.  It is possible that after pressurization and then cooling off, there is a leak and the coolant is pushed into the oil pan.  You replaced the gasket before.  Did you use any sealant or did you re-torque the bolts?

Have you checked the head to see if it's got a flat mating surface?

Guys with more engine experience than me could offer more.  I'd want to see what the block surface looks like - to see if there's a compromised spot indicating a leak.

[SteveKfl]

IMO novice opinion... the fact stated that the "water leaks down in storage" into clean oil, and after three head gasket replacements already, suggests to me that possibly a "block flaw/crack".  Something not under pressure like above the head gasket area syphoning down the water.  The lack of water signs until run, and then the steam present to the crankcase filler/vent pipe when running (but no exhaust signs of white smoke), suggests to me the "heating of the water in the crank case" not out the cylinders to exhaust, and then the water-oil mix gets mixed up for "mud" after running agitation and circulation.  Don't forget to "clean" the water system/radiator if signs of murky water show under the radiator cap.  That means the mix has circulated into heaters, radiator, etc.  Sorry, and I hope I'm wrong for an easier "fix" for your situation.  Good Luck! 

[GunnersWillys]

1)  As mentioned I've replaced the head gasket 3 times total.  At no time did I use sealant.  Everything I've read here indicates, that if installed properly, it is not needed.  Should I use sealant?

Each time after 500 miles or so I started to get white smoke out the tailpipe.  And each time I removed it there were visible traces of water migrating over to the pistons, thus the white smoke.  Maybe this time it is migrating to the oil ports?

Is there enough water in the head to leak down under the head gasket and lower the volume in the radiator?

Engine was rebuilt (by me) maybe 3000 miles ago.  At that time the block and head were machined.  Suspect it didn't take too well as I keep replacing gaskets. 

2) I have maybe 50-ish miles or 15-20 hours run time on it since the most recent head gasket replacement (used mostly offroad versus on road, more engine time than miles).   I did the original torque at install, then retorqued once more since the last replacement.  I did the final torque yesterday.  No movement to speak of on any of the bolts.  Torqued it cold. 

3)  No PCV system!  This is open to the air with a drop tube.  I do not take it into water over the axles, so water in the oil is not coming in through the drop tube, plus it has not seen any water crossing since this last head gasket went in.  The Willys is stored under a pole barn with the hood closed, so no real chance of a rain issue.  But water in the oil bath, well, yea, could be somewhat due to me rinsing the engine.  But moisture is definitely coming in via the breather tube between the bath and the cover for the cam on top of the engine.  That was a mayonnaise mess inside when I took it off.

4)  One more clue from this morning:  I removed the carb yesterday, and in the process broke the metal vacuum tube for the distributor advance at the carb.  So that assembly is temporarily removed, meaning there is an open port at the base of the carb.  After running it for 15 minutes or so, it was wet underneath that port.  Water, not oil or gas. 

5)  If we decide it is a cracked block, is there any kind of sealant you can put in the radiator that would actually seal that crack, and not just be snake oil?

I topped off the radiator this morning.  Will let it sit for a few days and see if my radiator volume drops and my oil level increases.

Boy it would be nice if it were just the head gasket.  Any way to firmly determine if it is a cracked block? 

Nice feedback so far.  Please continue!

[SteveKfl]

As a curious-observer, I'm wondering if you have you thoroughly cleaned out all of the contamination in the pan and valve areas to prevent residual contamination potential?  As a suggestion to save money on oil and the mess along with it, if it were mine, I would leave the pan off after cleaning, and fill the water system, and then let it sit to see if "gravity alone" shows a leak to the crank area (pan under it to catch any).  If so, then it is not a "compression/vacuum forced-leak", but a "gap" or "bad seal" somewhere.
 
Without knowing where or the size of the "leak" and/or "crack", adding more "stuff" to the mix is not advisable... IMO. 
 
BTW... Do the spark plugs give any different "signs" of indicating a "single, or a paired-cylinder problem"?  That might give you a clue as to where to concentrate the inspections first.
 
Good Luck!

[GunnersWillys]

SteveKfl:

Do the spark plugs give any different "signs" of indicating a "single, or a paired-cylinder problem"?

Not actually sure what that is.  Can you elaborate?  Tks.

[SteveKfl]

I'll try.  With a combustion issue in the cylinder, if there is oil and water involved, the spark may not be similar in color or appearance to the "rest without an issue".  Mark which cylinder each plug comes from to keep track of placement.
 
If none of the plugs show anything but "normal similar coloring", then it would seem there is no cylinder involvement fouling the plug/s when running.  If two plugs show the same symptom, it could possibly indicate an "issue" at the water jacket or gasket area between those two cylinders.  That might help you concentrate your focus on looking for potential "leaks" there.  That would not eliminate other potentials also, but just give a place to "focus" and to start with.  I hope that helps explain clearer what I was suggesting the previous post.

[GunnersWillys]

Steve KFL said: 

let it sit to see if "gravity alone" shows a leak to the crank area (pan under it to catch any).  If so, then it is not a "compression/vacuum forced-leak", but a "gap" or "bad seal" somewhere.[/i]


I haven't dropped the oil pan to clean it, but I also haven't been using the 3B at all.  Cranked it several time since October, and have been watching the water level and oil clarity. 

Previous start-up maybe 4 weeks ago, oil still looked pretty good, radiator was down just a bit.  Just cranked it.  Radiator is down by 2.5" and the oil is a sludgy, white, soupy mess.  Somewhere I have a gap or bad seal.

No oil in the radiator, so it's a one-way ticket, which is probably good. 

Still leaning toward the head gasket as the culprit.  Got a local guy that wants to look at it for me.  I may give him that opportunity. Current gasket is copper, been torqued 3 times, no sealant between gasket and head.

[scoutpilot]

"maybe 50-ish miles or 15-20 hours run time"

Let's see now that equals 2.5 MPH. These motors don't do well when they are not driven at operating temperature and speed for at least 20 minutes. I suspect you have just not driven the Jeep enough. Excessive idling will never allow the crankcase to properly vent the moisture and volatiles which will give you this problem.

[GunnersWillys]

Well, this is Florida, and we have lots of condensation.  Unfortunately I'm missing a lot of water from the radiator at the same time the oil became water infused.  Way too much water in the oil for simple condensation. 

But you are right about it not being driven.  I just use it for Jeep events, and that is down to once a year, that's about it.  May be time for it to find a new home where it will get a little more use, after I get this figured out.

[Mark W.]

DID you use sealant on your head studs? Pematex II non hardening is recommended coat threads going into block then screw the studs in Just finger tight.

Did you have the block Magnifluxed before the rebuild?

You should not run the engine with the vacuum port on the carb open that would lead to a HUGE vacuum leak

Any water under the jeep when sitting?

Are you re-torquing the head nuts after running the engine for 20 min but not before allowing the engine to return to room temp?

[GunnersWillys]

6 months later, an update.  Finally got around to delving deeply into this.  I believe I've fixed it.  Short answer, and after consulting with Kaiser Willys: 

1)  The head bolts needed to be sealed (as suggested above).  They suggested using anti-seize. 
2)  They suggested using copper spray on the gasket.

Several weeks after installing the new gasket and following these suggestions, the issue appears to be gone. 

There is a bit more to it than that.  I have a YouTube channel and I filmed the process.  Wrapping up the edit over the next few days.  I'll drop a link here in a day or two. 

Thanks to everyone for input!

[GunnersWillys]

Okay, here you go.  Comments are welcome.  Long video, use the chapter markers. 

https://youtu.be/b5nfe-2_7Rw