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Author Topic: Is it a CJ3A?  (Read 262 times)

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Offline AgusW

Is it a CJ3A?
« on: April 08, 2021, 11:28:59 AM »
Hello there,

I am from Argentina where CJ3As are really rare, and most of the jeeps are really jeeps salad. I really want to know if this jeep is a real cj3a, or it just have a cj3a tub and a cj2a frame.

https://imgur.com/a/XdoX9wj

Thanks!

Offline SteveKfl

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 02:00:24 PM »
I'm pretty sure that isn't a Cj3A passenger front fender, there's no bulge for the battery tray.
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Offline AgusW

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 03:02:17 PM »
I'm pretty sure that isn't a Cj3A passenger front fender, there's no bulge for the battery tray.

But the rest of the jeep? The owner told me that the frame doesnt have a serial number, as well as the tub has the ignition hole in the right place.

Online Rus Curtis

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 04:12:25 PM »
I don't own a CJ-3A so if I'm wanting to research specifics, I'd search using the 3A jeep icon above as a starting point.  You can also do a dive into the "3A Projects" section in this forum and it may help alot.  I also own a copy of Bob Westerman's book, The Civilian Jeep Model CJ-3A,  also a great reference.

One link on the 3A Page I visit from time to time is:
https://www.cj3apage.com/index/My_1950.htm

There's detailed images of various components.  Components that look different from the images you shared above.  For instance, I also wonder about the hat channel brace under the right fender - it's different from what I am used to seeing on a civilian jeep.  Plus, the hat channels running under the floor are laid out in a way that is unusual to me.  The rear axle appears to be a later D44 (again, don't know if 3A's switched from D41 to 44 at some point).  I would also expect to see the "WILLYS" stamp on the tailgate of a 3A. 

I see images of more than one frame, so I don't know if it's just random images of multiple frames or all the donors used to cobble together what is now under the jeep.  There is a good reference on frames here:
https://cj3b.info/Dating/DatingFrames.html

You may also want to reference the Serial Data Plate on the firewall to see what it says, as well as the engine Serial number on the flat boss above the water pump.  That would help too.

I know that things were constantly changing during the production run of these jeeps.  Knowing what year that jeep is supposed to be may help.

Also, I've read threads before about, "which part makes a jeep that model jeep?"  e.g. Is a 3A with a rotted frame using a swapped in (modified) 2A frame still a 3A?  Is a complete 3A (frame/drive train) with no body using a 2A body (complete with Serial Plates for registration) a 2A or 3A?  etc. 

This could get deep.  From a distance, that jeep looks like a military jeep.  I can see non- civilian items, but modification is easy. 

Here's a question.  If it really is a CJ--3A and those are rare, wouldn't it maybe make more sense to restore that vs. modify it to resemble a military jeep?  What is the seller saying?
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline AgusW

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 04:46:08 PM »
I don't own a CJ-3A so if I'm wanting to research specifics, I'd search using the 3A jeep icon above as a starting point.  You can also do a dive into the "3A Projects" section in this forum and it may help alot.  I also own a copy of Bob Westerman's book, The Civilian Jeep Model CJ-3A,  also a great reference.

One link on the 3A Page I visit from time to time is:
https://www.cj3apage.com/index/My_1950.htm

There's detailed images of various components.  Components that look different from the images you shared above.  For instance, I also wonder about the hat channel brace under the right fender - it's different from what I am used to seeing on a civilian jeep.  Plus, the hat channels running under the floor are laid out in a way that is unusual to me.  The rear axle appears to be a later D44 (again, don't know if 3A's switched from D41 to 44 at some point).  I would also expect to see the "WILLYS" stamp on the tailgate of a 3A. 

I see images of more than one frame, so I don't know if it's just random images of multiple frames or all the donors used to cobble together what is now under the jeep.  There is a good reference on frames here:
https://cj3b.info/Dating/DatingFrames.html

You may also want to reference the Serial Data Plate on the firewall to see what it says, as well as the engine Serial number on the flat boss above the water pump.  That would help too.

I know that things were constantly changing during the production run of these jeeps.  Knowing what year that jeep is supposed to be may help.

Also, I've read threads before about, "which part makes a jeep that model jeep?"  e.g. Is a 3A with a rotted frame using a swapped in (modified) 2A frame still a 3A?  Is a complete 3A (frame/drive train) with no body using a 2A body (complete with Serial Plates for registration) a 2A or 3A?  etc. 

This could get deep.  From a distance, that jeep looks like a military jeep.  I can see non- civilian items, but modification is easy. 

Here's a question.  If it really is a CJ--3A and those are rare, wouldn't it maybe make more sense to restore that vs. modify it to resemble a military jeep?  What is the seller saying?

Hey Rus,

Thanks for your reply. I think that Willys changed the rear axle from D41 to 44 in middle to late 3as. The owner of this jeep when he restored it he wanted the look of a M38, thats why the military stuff as well as the tailgate with no Willis stamp.
The principal problem is that the jeep doesnt have the original data plate, so the serial number is missing. The data plate that you can see is a repro with no numbers. The owner also told me that the frame doesnt have any serial number stamped on it, as willys did with cj2a frames.

So, i really want to know if the the frame and the tub are from a cj3a. I can see many characteristics, for example the ignition switch and the windowshield, but i really dont know how to difference the frames.

Online Rus Curtis

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2021, 05:48:16 PM »
The main differences (that I know of) on frames is gussets on the front bumber (but those can be removed) and thickness of the rails (can't be changed).  I recall reading that the 3A frame is thicker  but again, I don't have much reference material except what I find on the 'net. 

I can dig a bit more but will need to be later.
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline AgusW

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2021, 06:10:10 PM »
The main differences (that I know of) on frames is gussets on the front bumber (but those can be removed) and thickness of the rails (can't be changed).  I recall reading that the 3A frame is thicker  but again, I don't have much reference material except what I find on the 'net. 

I can dig a bit more but will need to be later.

Dont worry dude! Your replies are really good. Thanks a lot. The problem is the data plates and as you said, gussets can be removed as well as the engine mounts, that normally with a cj3a engine they are offset, but the engine of this jeep looks like an mb or gpw. Its doesnt have a cj block.

Offline 1955CJ-5

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Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2021, 06:25:22 PM »
This has some information.


https://cj3a.info/cj3a/cj2acj3a.html



Notice the offset of the motor mount brackets on the 3a frame vs the 2a....

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Offline AgusW

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2021, 06:28:17 PM »
The main differences (that I know of) on frames is gussets on the front bumber (but those can be removed) and thickness of the rails (can't be changed).  I recall reading that the 3A frame is thicker  but again, I don't have much reference material except what I find on the 'net. 

I can dig a bit more but will need to be later.

Rus, thanks for your help. I was looking some on the links that you wrote down early in this post, while i was seeing the cj3a frame front bumper i notice a differences between cj2as and cj3as.
This a cj2a frame photo:

https://www.google.com/search?q=cj2a+frame&sxsrf=ALeKk02gxge9IZCcth0F5IFQiRRxbqXWjA:1617920216391&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=ejvWuVD2vDdBQM%252Cukcb6O4BMUp_5M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kR_glXUUllcGEYJCPWIaq1buWAUtQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ8pa-1u_vAhVbILkGHR_qBV0Q9QF6BAgWEAE#imgrc=_3WvL2-icOhOEM

If you see some pictures, cj2a front bumper is hold with a figure like a triangle, cj3as front bumper are direcly connected to the frame.

https://www.cj3apage.com/index/My_1950/frame_work.htm

Really, thanks dude! Its really a cj3a frame, so the tub must be a cj3a as well


Online Rus Curtis

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2021, 08:24:35 PM »
That's how I do it...... Search, search, search.....

Be careful with assumptions (I am still working to avoid it!), "If one, then the other,"  because on the body, I don't understand the non-standard hat channels on the floor pan.  If the seller were attaching it that way, I'd say oops!  but you can see he's removing to repair and even the removed hat channels don't match what I've seen. 

Another good reference pointing out the motor mounts by 1955CJ-5.  Check those out!!!  Those are real good comparisons for tub differences, i.e. wheel wells, tool boxes, seat frames.

'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Online Bruce_W

Re: Is it a CJ3A?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 01:36:32 AM »
  I think that what we're seeing here is a CJ3A dressed up as an M38. I'm not an expert on either one, but I don't see anything that looks like CJ2-A. The frame leaning against the green trailer is an MB, but it's different from the one under the jeep. The hat channel pattern looks OK to me. Looks like a pretty nice jeep.
BW
Until We Jeep Again...........