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Author Topic: F-head Gasket side  (Read 162 times)

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Offline JohnK

F-head Gasket side
« on: February 08, 2021, 08:43:02 PM »
Finally finishing things up on the new block.  Time to put the head on. My Gasket set came from Walck's but no instructions.  One side fiber, the other metal. Ludel's rebuilders book says metal side towards head, Kaiser Willys site says metal side towards block.  I searched this site for an answer but didn't seem to get a hit on a specific answer.  I appreciate any guidance.  I do have copper spray and plan to use that on both sides.

Thanks,  John
1958 CJ3B stock
In restoration

Offline Mark W.

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2021, 02:20:51 AM »
Metal side up.
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Offline JohnK

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2021, 05:25:44 PM »
Thank you Mark!
1958 CJ3B stock
In restoration

Offline Rus Curtis

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2021, 11:53:42 AM »
I'd like to dig a bit into this topic.  This has been asked before but when you do search, even on the 3B Page, there isn't a whole lot of documentation. 

I have forever been confused about the verbiage in the Service Manual (SM) that states "crimp edge down" in para. E-99. Install Cylinder Head.  There is also a reference to "(See Fig. 100)" in the same section but actually appears a few pages earlier than this paragraph.

On the 3B Page, there is an article covering the Engine Service Bulletins:

https://cj3b.info/Tech/ServiceBulletins1.html

Where you can find the exact same verbiage with Bulletin 492, 21 Oct 60, Cylinder Head Gasket Replacement, on page 1. para. C.2.  in BOLD. And it also references an image as well, "(See A. Fig. 1)".  That is on the Page 2 link.  That image shows the crimped edge on one gasket labeled "Correct" and not visible on the second labeled, "Incorrect."  There's not much zoom available but just barely enough to see the crimped edge on the inner openings around the cylinders.

What I have yet been able to find is a reference specifying where the gasket is being installed.  Are the references above suggesting install the gasket onto the head or are the references suggesting install the gasket onto the block?  Above I stated the text has always confused me.  To me, neither source specifies.  Are folks envisioning where to install the gasket to decide which is up and which is down - or - is there written guidance that actually states the actual surface the gasket is intended to be mounted on? 

When I have a diagram, unless proven wrong, I go to that to resolve confusion.  The saying, "A picture is worth  thousand words," comes to mind... 

I took the liberty of scanning the image referenced above from the SM, fig 100 below.  I also included a zoom to show the detail of the crimped edge.  I also added a third attachment of an exchange on the old 3B Forum that had an opposite application.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/cj3b_bulletin_board/viewtopic.php?p=28814#p28814    (doc version below in case you can't get into TapaTalk)

To me, the post from Ken agrees with the images showing the crimp up and metal down - on the block.  IF the text references the gasket being installed on the upside down head, then all is in agreement.  Hopefully this generates some discussion with opinions and interpretations. 

BTW, I've had my head off twice since rebuilding the engine and I can't remember which way I installed it........

p.s. I hope all the attachments show....



« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 11:57:16 AM by Rus Curtis »
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline JohnK

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2021, 08:18:45 PM »
Hey Rus! ,

I held off responding in the hope of getting other thoughts on the subject.  Secondly, when the "crimped" side is referred to, I'm assuming that is the fiber side.

It is frustrating that the vendors don't provide specific manufacturer's instructions for the gasket installation.  The one from Walcks doesn't indicate the manufacturer - so I'm out of luck there.  I suppose I can call Carl, but that is likely just one more opinion. I checked Ludel's rebuilders book and my copy of the service manual and can confirm your insights.  The SM is a bit contradictory between the text and the diagram unless you try to perceive a unspoken context to the words.  Frankly, the diagram seems to be the most clear.

Additionally, Ken's opinion carries a lot of weight considering his experience and that he has likely put many of these on.   It matches up with the diagram as well.   So I will go in that direction.  If it goes south, oh well, I've been on this project for 13 years.  I cracked a block with less than 5 miles on it - how bad can this turn out!

Thanks guys.

John
1958 CJ3B stock
In restoration

Offline Rus Curtis

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2021, 09:50:34 PM »
Call Carl.  I seem to recall trying to search myself for insight on this that I ran across a forum thread (I'd have to redo the search to find it again) where someone said Walck's had an original gasket that was marked and that's what they use to advise with (a visual reference).  What you find out will be worth sharing.

I'll see if I can find that reference.  Okay!  Found it!

https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/f-134-head-gasket-orientation.12221/

(original poster, first paragraph)  This thread also suggests it may not matter which side is up or down. 

Also:
https://hainesgarage.proboards.com/thread/1882/head-gasket-orientation

It strays near the bottom, with peanut gallery input but it does list another use for duct tape.

As I stated, this is confusing to me.  I don't like the ambiguity of the text and also need additional input.  That's why I posted to your thread - for discussion.  Specifically, to your question, I am under the impression that the crimped side is on the fiber side too. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 10:11:45 PM by Rus Curtis »
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Online SteveKfl

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2021, 08:39:52 AM »
My $.02 after reading the following in the link Rus provided... "Using no sealer or other compound, position the new cylinder head gasket with the crimped edges of the gasket metal down (see fig. 100). This gasket position allows a positive seal along the narrow surfaces of the cylinder head between the combustion chambers and eliminates the possibility of burning combustion gases reaching an asbestos portion of the cylinder head gasket." 
 
OK, so where are they considering the "burning combustion gases" located?  To me, that would be the cylinder head side where the spark happens, so... wouldn't the 'material side' be on the bottom, right, or maybe not? 
 
I prefer the solid copper gaskets, but re-torquing several times after warms ups and run time is critical.  My experience, I've used them in high performance high compression engines drag racing without any problems.  To each his own, I'm guessing.  Very interesting debate tho.  Thanks Rus, for stimulating it.
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Offline JohnK

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2021, 12:44:42 PM »
Carl says "usually" metal side down.  I didn't ask why he added that adverb. It just seemed so perfectly fitting for this whole thread.   As if a gasket for a specific engine would under some set of circumstances be installed differently.  I didn't want to go there. Maybe everybody in Bowmanstown, PA uses that adverb as in "usually Ohio is west of here" or " I usually put gas in my car".  On the Kaiser-Willys site, they say "typically the metal side goes down"  Apparently in Aiken SC, their adverb of choice is "typically".  Note to self - if you are lost, Bowmanstown and Aiken are bad places to get directions.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnFU_5PuwMg

Fel-pro has a video on gasket orientation - it indicates that no markings mean that it can go either way - and the example shown has two different type sides.  Perhaps that is why there are no markings on this one.   Given all the search activity I've done for the F-Head gasket orientation - I've yet to see a response where someone has said "my gasket was marked with a..." or "the instructions that came with mine said...." .  I doubt that everyone bought the same gasket unless there is only one factory in China supplying the entire world market ;D 

For the record, Carl has likely forgotten more about Willys than I will ever know, not bashing him at all - just having fun with the abundance of ambiguity on this subject.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 03:23:55 PM by JohnK »
1958 CJ3B stock
In restoration

Offline JohnK

Re: F-head Gasket side
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2021, 02:04:59 PM »
I have made the decision to place the metal side of the gasket towards the head. 

     1) based on the text of the service manual - diagram be damned
     2) Given the high temp in the combustion chamber and exposure to the immediate heat of the combustion
     3) Based on the text of Ludel's rebuilders book

I may well be wrong, but the re-building of the engine, along with two removals and installs has given me the confidence of knowing that I can easily replace the gasket if I need to.

Thanks for all your comments.

John
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 10:25:52 AM by JohnK »
1958 CJ3B stock
In restoration