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Author Topic: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953  (Read 173 times)

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Offline Seven

Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« on: September 14, 2020, 08:50:49 AM »
Greetings to all,

May I ask you a few questions about a late CJ 3A.
 
I have a late, key started CJ3A, delivered in Holland in february 1953. It never had a floor (pedal) start. I bought it a few years back with an engine block casting number 641087 series 1. It cracked. I now have engine block series 4 with a re-inforced rear flange similar to the engine block with the casting number 804380.
The bell housing is the one of an early CJ2A/WW II bell. The starter is an Auto-Lite MZ 4113 (MB/early CJ 2A) and the generator is an Auto-lite GW 4801-D (early CJ 3B). The re-inforced flange of the engine partially covers the timing mark hole of the early adapter plate. I have a flywheel with a 97 tooth gear.

I want to complete the full restoration of my late, key started CJ 3A as originally as possible. That is very difficult in Holland. Everybody knows about a MB but there is very little knowledge about a CJ Jeep and very few CJ-parts are available.

For the restoration I need information about the following (correct) four parts that must stay together:
1. Bell Housing, 2. Adapter Plate , 3. Starter, 4. Flywheel.

Question: what parts did Willys-Overland use in late 1952/early 1953 for the late and key started version of the CJ 3A? The same parts as used for the (early or) late M38 or early CJ 3B?

Bell Housing: The MB/early CJ 2A Bell housing is with bushing and too small for a nose-starter. Is a early or late military M38 Bell Housing (also used on the CJ 3B) the correct part or another Bell Housing specially made for the late and key started version of the CJ 3A?

Adapter plate: Is a military M38 adapter plate the correct one or did Willys-Overland made a special version of the plate for the late, key started CJ 3A?

Starter: I understand that the late and key started CJ 3A had a nose-charter, Auto-Lite MCH 6203, 6 volt (or a 6 volt Prestolite 46-15 MCH 6207???). Question: Both, the Auto-Lite MCH 6203 and the Prestolite MCH 6207 needs a solenoid. Was it originally mounted on top of the starter as I see on some photos on the Web?

Flywheel: In combination with a MCH 6203 nose-starter I need a 129 in stead of a 124 or 97 tooth Gear. Question: where are all types of the flywheel suitable for a MCH 6203 or a Prestolite 6207 starter or just the 129 tooth gear?

Finally
Was in combination with the MCH 6203 starter an Auto-Lite GW 4801 generator, as I now have, originally used for a key started CJ 3A?

The early 3A version of the starter is the Auto-Lite MZ4137 (foot pedal). I found on the Web an Auto-lite MZ4173T 9K 6 volt starter with a solenoid mounted on top of it (NOS). Is that also a correct starter for an early or late  CJ (2A or 3A)?

If possible, can you attache some pictures?

I thank you very much for your answers.


Offline Bob W

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2020, 08:07:17 PM »
Some information is here.....
http://www.cj3a.info/cj3a/date3a.htm

More detailed information is here...
http://cj3a.info/book/index.html
Bob W

Offline Dinesh

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2020, 08:29:06 PM »
I have two of those very late cj3a which are under restoration.
I shall share some small details I have found during the restoration.
Good luck.

Loek Kuijpers

  • Guest
Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 08:28:31 AM »
Thanks Bob and Dinesh,

The late CJ-3A starter (and bell housing) is not shown in the CJ 3A.info/tech/starter. Just the early and mid arrangement with foot pedal starter.
It is only mentioned that the late CJ 3A was key started. No information or pictures.

Is this information to be found in your new CJ 3A book?

Offline Seven

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 03:21:18 PM »
Thanks Dinesh for your answer.

Offline Seven

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 03:46:37 PM »
Thanks Bob W for your answer.

The late CJ-3A starter is not shown in the "CJ3A.info/tech/starter. Just tyhe earle and the mid arrangement (Mid 1950). Perhaps in your new book?

Is it possible that in a late, key started  CJ 3 (1953) early CJ 3B parts are used?


Offline oldtime

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 05:00:08 PM »
Cj3B never used a key start system until approx the late the 1956 model year.
Prior to that all CJ3B used an electric floor start switch.
Solenoids are used with the key start systems by 1957.

Offline Bob W

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 09:06:18 PM »
The late CJ-3A starter is not shown in the "CJ3A.info/tech/starter. Just tyhe earle and the mid arrangement (Mid 1950). Perhaps in your new book?

Is it possible that in a late, key started  CJ 3 (1953) early CJ 3B parts are used?

That page is just showing the two different CJ-3A "kick start" type starters and linkages, not the later key start type. The late CJ-3A key start is different than the early CJ-3B and the M-38 stuff.

From the web-page...
"The third starter is Autolite MCH-6203. This starter is key activated with a solenoid mounted to the top of the starter and is the closed nose type. It uses a 129-tooth flywheel. The 1965 Universal Service Manual states that the third starter was put into production with vehicle serial number 30973 and, on a different page, engine serial number 130859. By adding the prefixes 452-GB1 to the vehicle serial number and 3J to the engine number, the result is vehicle 452-GB1 30973 with engine 3J130859."

Any of the flywheels can accept the 129 tooth ring gear.
Bob W

Offline Seven

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 04:37:51 AM »
Thank you all for your help and answers.

If I can buy the original starter Auto-Lite MCH 6203 with the solenoid mounted on top of it, which Bell house and adapter is the correct and right one for my Jeep. I have to complete the restoration with the correct starter, bell housing and adapter plate.
Who can I buy this right Auto-Lite starter and other parts from?

The Jeep now also has a civilian capstan winch, a harrison heater and a pto!

Offline Seven

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 05:43:53 AM »
"Wesk" on "willysmjeeps.com" tells that the early M38 bellhousing also was used on CJ2A and CJ3A and the late M38 Bellhousing also on a CJ3B.
Only the late M38 uses a large frame starter. The early one has a bushing (bearing) and uses a small frame starter.

The Auto-Lite nose- starter MCH 6203 for my key started CJ3A has itself a bushing (bearing), so the late M38 Bellhousing could also be suitable for the MCH 6203 starter?? But I prefer a correct late CJ3A Bellhousing if these were made by Willys-Overland at the time. I don't know yet if that is the case.   

Offline Bob W

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2020, 07:33:03 PM »
A quick look in the parts listings shows these numbers for the flywheel housings......

CJ-2A  A-439
early CJ-3A 641421
late CJ-3A  802929
early CJ-3B 802929
early M-38 801628
late M-38 804308

There are a bunch of differences between the bellhousings and there were many changes and updates made during the production of these Jeeps. Most of the part numbers will work in different applications even though they are not factory correct.
Bob W

Offline Seven

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2020, 12:34:47 PM »
Thanks Bob,

I bought a Bell House today 802929 (late CJ3A, earlyCJ 3B) from an American supplier. I have also found a NOS Rear Engine Backing plate G740 G758 (S56), 2805-040=1874, late M38/M38A1.

I assume this plate also will work with Bell House 802929. The mounting holes match. I don't know what the parts listing numbers are of the rear engine mounting plate for bell house 802929, late version CJ3A.

Thank you very much for your answer.

Offline Seven

Re: Key started, late version of a CJ 3A, february 1953
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2020, 02:26:08 AM »

Would someone want to sell me his Auto-Lite MCH 6203 nose-starter with the solenoid mounted on top of it for my late, key started CJ 3A (1953)? In Holland it cannot be found.

Thanks