Clutch removed how does this look!?

[Dutch_Jeeper]

Ok, not going the polute the Transmission removal tips topic with this. I pulled the bellhousing of and the clutch looks brand new. Everything was dry so no leaks either.

It does have a strange wear pattern on the inner circle side of the clutchplate. Pressure plate and flywheel look good no grooves, nice and smooth, the main bearing though was pretty worn, it had up and down play in the outer bearing ring, and i can move it around in an oval. Only other thing i can think off, if it's in the clutch assembly, is the pilot bushing is a steel/iron one instead of a bronze one!

The sound i heard sounded like a buzzsaw or rather chainsaw like sound (or perhaps resonating sound!?) it was loud. It appeared when i pressed the clutch to shift, wether, driving or stationary. It dissapeared immediatly when i let go and pressed the clutchpedal again. Did not matter if the transmission was in neutral, 1st, 2nd or 3th it only appeared, again only sometimes which is the worst kind off thing to diagnose, hot or cold, when pressing the clutch pedal. Double clutching seemed to help to avoid it!??

Only thing i found transmission side is that the input shaft has some up and down play!? But it shifts very well, no difficulty ever putting it in gear, shifts fine right from 1st to 3th and between 1st and reverse!?

here's the picture, any thoughts. I hope it was the bearing, can't know for sure until i replaced everything and drive it. But perhaps someone recognizes the symptoms. I do not think it's the clutch chatter i've read something about!?

[Dutch_Jeeper]

I think i found the culprit.

I got the pilot bushing out by stuffing it with grease, put an old input shaft i picked up earlier today in and then gently hamer it. The grease pushes out the pilot bearing after a few controlled hits quite easily. No need to take the flywheel of.

There was a tiny piece broken of the engine side of the pilot bushing, probably "hammered loose" by the inputshaft.The bronze bushing i have for a replacement fits perfectly on the input shaft, the old one was to large

I think this is what caused, what i now believe has to have been a resonating sound from the clutchplate enhanced by the bellhouse (probably the real reason they call it a bellhouse  it amplifies sounds  )

Bad thing is, the new clutchplate they gave me is to big, so i hope they have the right one in stock. Though the old one does look in good condition, if they have it i'll put a new one in, else it goes back on.

[athawk11]

The pressure plate side of the disc looks fairly uniform.  The flywheel side looks a bit odd.

It's hard to tell from the photo...Is the flywheel surface grooved?

If grooved, and based on the disc pattern, I would probably get the flywheel re-surfaced before putting it back together.

One other note of caution on the flywheel bushing.  On a recent project, I replaced the bushing.  I first checked its size by slipping it on to the Tranny input shaft.  It fit perfect.  I then installed it into the flywheel.  I re-installed the Tranny and found the fit was a bit tight.  Turns out it was too tight.  The input shaft on the Tranny would spin even if I pushed in the clutch pedal. The result: I couldn't get it into gear.  It acted like I had a problem with the clutch.

When I pushed in the new bushing, the inner diameter shrunk.  I had to hone out the bushing a bit.  Once I did this, everything worked fine.

Tim

[Dutch_Jeeper]

athawk, i noticed that when i tried to fit the spare input shaft i got for clutch alligment. I put the bushing in the freezer + used freezer spray when i tapped it in using a socket. Once it was in, the input shaft went in very tight, thought i had hammered to hard and expanded the bushing.

However as it warmed up to room temperature the input shaft went in fine and i could spin it round easily by hand. It's bronze so deforming it by hammering it is almost impossible, bronze tends to break before it bends. I also used Molykote graphite when i install it al. I have faith i did it right lol  I am about to wrestle back the transfer case.

[Dutch_Jeeper]

it's in  was a 4 hour long battle  i'm broken lol You sure scared the Sh** out of me athawk11 about that bushing, i just realy hope i got it right because if I have to get it back out, i'm bringing it to a shop  never again lol

Offcourse i forgot something, that lever for the crawl box, the bolt does not go in once the transmission is in place lol.But i'm not going to lower it again lol i'll just take the gastank out tomorrow roflmao.

I got the transmission far enough in i could use the 4 bolts that hold it to the bellhouse. Got it lined up i could thread them in by hand a few threads and then tightened them, each on a bit at a time, then the other, round and round, to get it all the way in.

Hopefully the manifold assembly is in tomorrow so i can take it out for a ride and find out if i'm a Bubba or a true hobby mechanic. (If it all works i'm a hobby mechanic with a Titanic sized ship full of luck lol )

Used ratchet straps to holf it in place, lift & pull, used a wooden beam accros the seats for the straps, 3 jacks, breaker bar and i dont know what you call them, but sticks of tappered iron thin enough to put through the boltholes to line everything up. I'm pretty sure i did not put to much stress on the input shaft.

I still say it's doable on your own, but i will not be doing it again lol, at least on the floor with just jacks and jackstands. next time i'll rent a engine hoist and take the engine out. Though you still have the same problem of getting the input shaft lined up, but you do not have to struggle so much i guess lol

Keep you all posted.

I am sorry to say i was to busy to make more pictures, also i doubt my phone could have handled the graphite and copper grease and beer and sweat and blood an tears anyway roflmao

[Dutch_Jeeper]

So it's up and running, not driving yet though!  :-/

Everything seems fine accept the clutsh does'nt fully disengage. With the back on jackstands i was able to shift, though it was not smooth, i could get in gear and shift, so the pilot bushing seems good, but i quickly stopped. Put it on the ground and tried again to see what happens, It starts rolling as soon as i try to engage a gear, just need to slightly push the gearstick and it starts rolling

It's late so i stopped, had a hard time reaching the clutch cable to adjust it!? It's the only thing i can think about right now!? Tightening the cable so the fork and bearing is further towards the engine, this should not affect total clutch travel but bring the bearing closer to the pressure plate?

Right??? lol as i said it's late lol about 3 o clock midnight here, tired and trying to wrap my head around the problem and if i'm on the right path adjusting the clutch cable  I think i am lol i'll sleep over it and try again in the morning.

But if in the meantime someone reads this and could tell me if this is the right approach it wil be very much apreciated.

[Dutch_Jeeper]

Oww BTW, I was looking further into the problem earlier today and found a youtube vid showing the exact same sound i heard only not as consistent as in the vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTCWfbQcHc

[Dutch_Jeeper]

So after a good nights sleep and lots of strong coffee 

Noticed that the main bearing was also turning when clutch engaged, though i did have some room between bearing and fingers, it was not enough to stop the bearing from spinning. I read that this should not be the case, and a spinning mainbearing while driving will destroy it.

Clutch has been very tight from when i got it, a specialist who took a ride with me after i bought it and went to pick up some parts, did tell me the clutch engaged quite high on the pedal and it could use a bit more slack, but it was ok.

This got me thinking this morning, i unfortunatly neglected to check the old situation with the inspection cover off before i pulled it apart. Things looked in very good condition so i think the clutch has been replaced recently. Since the previous owner did not drive it that much and only short distances it did not wear that much, apart from the bearing.

So i think they could not get it adjusted properly, or did not adjust it properly to begin with back then and the main bearing was always spinning and that destroyed it, probably the long drive home after i purchased it, definately killed it.

Back to this morning, I could not get enough clearance between the bearing and pressure plate fingers, hence it was spinning wiht clutch engaged. I could get just enough clearance i could see the bearing slowing down a bit but stil spinning.

So i took the new fork out and compared it to the old one. I found a couple of things, the old one sits 1 milimeter lower on the pivot ball and the ends that push the carrier are 2 milimeters less thick, so with the old one the bearing sits 2 mm further from the pressure fingers.

The new fork also has more angle.

placing it on a flat surface and measuring from the surface to the top the the carrier end is 2,7 mm high opposed to 2.6 mm high for the old one.

The cable end 4,7 centimeters high for the new opposed to 4,5 cm for the old.

Now trying to wrap my head around these measurements:

-The lower measurements on the old fork, should give me enough adjustment room to stop the main bearing from spinning along.

But:

-The less steeped angle of the old on, gives me even less travel to fully disengage the clutch plate?

Now to the pivotball, i found this topic: http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=196583&hilit=clutch

mine is the 0.3 inch one instead of the 0.4 inch one wich gives me 0.1 or 3 millimeters less clutch disengagement.

So i think the problem is they adjusted the clutch such that the bearing was always under pressure and spinning to get enough clearance to fully disengage the clutchplate. Because the pivot ball is simply to short you can never get enough leverage distance to fully disengage and adjust it so it does not spin along.

So here's what i'm going to try to do to what i think should solve the problem.

Use the old fork but put a 0.1 inch/3mm ring behind the pivotball so i should get more travel from the fork!??

Keep you all posted

[Dutch_Jeeper]

With the old fork back and lengthening the pivotball i can now adjust it so the bearing does not spin when the clutch is engaged.

However I still dont have enough travel to fully disengage the cluth. Could it be that it is the pilot bushing afterall?

Is there any other adjustment i can make to get more travel to rule out the pilotbushing!??

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It was the pilot bushing afterall is my guess, so i did some very, very dirty bubba, redneck, dumb or perhaps simply very stupid engineering.

Do not read beyond this if you have a heart condition 



So, i had to get it out again anyway, so i thought what the heck. Put it in gear, brakes full on, start it and let the clutch go. Either i would smoke the clutchplate which had to come out again anyway or the input might start spinning in the pilot bushing, something had to give. Stopped it as soon as the clutch started smoking a bit and presto, problem solved. Let it all cool down, restarted and problem gone. All done in less then 30 seconds so i do not think any damage is done. I'll finish her up next and try again later and go for a test drive.

I am fully aware how dirty this is and no idea at all if it is a permanent solution, but as said i had to get everything off again anyway and could still be that way. I would not ever recommend anyone doing this.

[athawk11]

Push in on the clutch pedal until the bearing just touches the pressure plate fingers. Now push the pedal all the way in and measure/estimate how far the bearing moves forward.

You want to see 1/2" (12-13mm) or more.

Tim

[Dutch_Jeeper]

Thank you Tim, I did and it turns out i have been pretty blind this whole time, the clutchplate did disengage, so it was the pilot bushing afterall, though it is now free. Just took it for a ride and it shifts noticably better then before (before i just did'nt know, but it does shift smoother. No problems getting into first even while it is still rolling at a walking pace, which before was'nt possible. 1st to revers and back also seems smoother.

So i think i had a couple of problems before i took it apart. Besides the throwout bearing mainly in the adjustment of the clutch. I still have to do a little more fine tuning because now the cable is actually a bit loose.

Thanks for the advice

[Dutch_Jeeper]

Well hotdamn she has to get out again, but not for the clutch. This weekend i was driving around and suddenly would not go into 3th gear anymore? No matter what it tried, there was no gear grinding or anything. I limped back home in 2nd gear and took the cover off. After some inspection i noticed the the 3rth gear syncromesh is bad, it does not grab the gear anymore and seems to be pushed to far out so the notches holding it in place with the keys/dogs are out of line.

There is also a bit of axial play on the mainshaft about 1,5 to 2mm that i can see on the outputside but that's just a guesstimate, i'll see if i can measure exactly tonight. The Syncromesh is actually a bit bend, though i did not try to force it in 3th gear i guess Archimedes's law on levers is alot stronger then i thought.



Bit dark, but the gears look to be in good shape.



You can just see it on these 2 pics:





Seeing how much i struggled with the whole transfer assembly last time, i have not decided yet if i will take it to a shop or do the rebuild myself. I've watched the video from Novak adapters and i'm confident i can pull it off. But having to wrestle with getting the gearbox back in again  the extra case adds at least another 30-40kilo's to it  I will probably keep an eye out for another T90 and rebuild that one myself for spare.