Timing mystery

[macrisel]

So me and the family hopped in the jeep the other day to go for a little ride through the fields.  When I tried to start the jeep, it didn't want to start very easy.  I hadn't started it in a few weeks, so I didn't think to much about.  When it did start, it was running a little rough.  We started off and made it about 30 yards before it lost all power and died and would not start.

After cursing a little, I went and got the truck and pulled it back into the garage.  I kept thinking it wasn't getting any gas, but as it turns out, it was out of time.  When I pulled the cap off, the rotor was pointed at approximately 5 o-clock and #1 plug was at 4 o-clock.  No big deal, I moved the distributer, started it and timed it with a light.

Here is my question.....what happened?  The distributer wasn't loose and I know it was in time before I parked it.  I sounds like it jumped time, but for the life of me, I can't picture how.  I know I "fixed" it, but I want to know what happened to avoid it happening again.

[1955CJ-5]

Is is possible that the rotor was not seated when you first timed the engine, and then later slipped into (the wrong) place? I don't know if that is possible, but besides the cap, everything else is steel to steel....

[athawk11]

I was thinking along the same line as Randy, but I think the timing would have been out at least 180 degrees.  Being only a few degrees off, the distributor may have appeared tight, but may have actually been loose enough to move out of time.

Lew Ladwig of the IFFC makes it a regular routine to tighten nuts and bolts prior to Willys road trips.  I followed this course prior to the Fall Colors Tour last year.  My rebuild was only a few months old.  I was surprised at how loose many of the fasteners already were.

Tim

[macrisel]

I don't know.........when I loosened up the distributer bolt to turn adjust the distributer it was still very tight.  I don't think it had worked its way loose but that is the only thing I can think of.  Would it be possible that a tooth broke off of the fiber timing gear?  I put a new one on when I did my rebuild 65 miles ago.  If a tooth was broke would the jeep still run correctly after i put it back in time?

Maybe I'm overthinking this.......I just don't want to be out on the road broke down.............or even worse..........in the middle of a parade and having to push the jeep to a side street.  I would never hear the end of it from my car club friends!

[athawk11]

Mac,
I hadn't considered a timing gear problem. (I'm used to timing chain issues.) 

Wouldn't you slip out of time every time the missing tooth rotates?  Unless you're just catching the next gear tooth.  Helical gears would possibly have that advantage if you have a broken tooth.  Okay, now I'm just thinking out loud.  Very interesting issue.

Tim 

[1955CJ-5]

I would think a timing gear issue would cause more problems than just distributor timing....I suppose you could put #1 at TDC and verify that both valves were completely closed...use a few pounds of air pressure and listen either at the carb throat or the tail pipe for leakage...for the cam to move enough to move the rotor from the 5 to the 4 o'clock position I would think more than one tooth would have to  be missing,� but I too am just speculating...

Put a little dab of paint on the distributor and the block and see if it moves over time, your timing clamp on the dist may not be doing it's job...the bolt could be tight but if the gap is closed or the nut is bottomed out on the threads then there may not be much "clamping" going on...

[macrisel]

I will double check the "clamping" force.  I hadn't thought about the nut bottoming out on the bolt.  If I remember right, I grabbed the distributer first thing when I thought to check the timing and it had no play in it.......

[athawk11]

One more thought.  The oil pump drives the distributor. This is another helical gear.  Could it be broken?  Or the gear on the camshaft.  If this were the case, I think you would have consistent problems. 

I am hopeful the clamp/nut/bolt is bottoming out.  That is, by farm the easiest fix.

Tim

[AZJeepNut]

How about a missing or damaged tooth on the gear on the camshaft, the one that engages the gear at the end of the distributor shaft? I can't help thinking about starting problems that come back to a missing tooth on the ring gear and only appear when the ring gear stops in the position where the missing tooth would engage with the starter gear the next time you try to start the engine. Could a similar thing happen if distributor/camshaft gears are damaged, maybe just throwing the ignition timing off off a bit but not preventing ignition?

[Matto]

My first thought tends to be the clamp not locking down for one reason or another.
� �Another thought is your distributor is sticky and might not have fully returned from advance in your previous use?
Matt

[RedWilly]

I had a similar issue with mine where I thought the clamp bolt was tight but I could still turn the distributor. It ended up that the bolt was too long and was hitting the block before it actually tighten completely.

[macrisel]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.  I've been busy the last several days with other projects and havn't had a chance to get back to the jeep.  Tomorrow, I'm heading up to Troy, MI to an IH Scout and Truck show and won't be back until Sunday.  My buddy Scotty (my official paint/body man) has a 1954 IH hot rod pickup he has been working on for some time.  Since he is going with me to Jeff City, MO next month to the Fall Midwest Willys Reunion, I told him I would go to the IH show.

Little does he know, I have an hidden agenda.....I'll be keeping my eye out for an overdrive!  I know it might be a long shot, but who knows?

[AZJeepNut]

OK, you guys are very considerate not to have pointed out my faulty memory that located the gear on the distributor shaft instead of the oil pump shaft, but where's the fun in that? Senior memory moments often make for amusing posts, and I'm sure that won't be the last one for me 

[athawk11]

AZ,
I think we all knew what you were going for.� This has never been a forum where people choose to beat you up.� That's why I like it so much.

I've never seen more than a polite correction when I have had my numerous senior moments.

Tim

[AZJeepNut]

That's cool. There is a good sense of humor among forum members here that makes it a good place to be when you need a little help.