Elbow water outlet

[macrisel]

I have got to agree with Larry on the extractors.  The only luck I have had with them is donating more blood to my garage floor

Heat and pb blaster have served me well in the past.  As a last resort, I have followed Larry's procedure to drill out bolts, but you have to be VERY careful and drill the bolt square.  Above all else, know your limits (and your tools) and call a machine shop if you get in over your head.  The small fee they may charge will seem like a deal when compared to trying to find another OE head in good shape.

[Paddy]

Thanks all on this.  

Here's the update.  It's out!

But here's the catch.  The numbnut who used a soft bolt left a broke bolt below it, I believe, unless you tell me that one of the bolts holding the coolant outlet elbow is shorter than the other two.

I got out this evening by applying heat for about 2-3 minutes with a propane torch.  I shielded the surrounding areas with foil (worked well) then let the bolt cool a little, applied some more lubricant then gently, very gently began to turn it and was very concerned that I was about to twist/torque the remaining bolt but as I very slowly turned and watched I could see that the bolt within the sleeve of the threads was in fact turning.

Now, how do I "extract" the remaining bolt that the last guy left?

I understand the concept of drilling, with increasingly large bits, then picking out the remaining bolt from the sleeve threads but how do I do that and know when I'm at the bottom of the bolt and not drilling into the bottom of the cylinder head bolt sleeve?

[Paddy]

"There is one other thing that can speed this process and that is reverse (left-handed) drill bits. Here's why, if the drill is running backwards there's a decent chance that at some point it may actually spin the remaining bolt/stud out of the hole."

So tell me this one again slowly.  The left-handed drill bit is something I can pick up at a hardware store or Sears?  And when I use it do I run my drill in reverse as well?

[Doug]

Depending on the luck of the draw, some of those outlet mounting holes are through holes and some are blind holes.  Just depends on your particular casting and how far they were drilling that day at the factory.   Look through the round opening and see if you can see the bottom of the bolt.  Can you reach through the water outlet hole and try to back it out?    Are you sure it is a bolt you are seeing or is it simply the bottom of the hole.

When you say the bolt is shorter because it is bottoming out on an old broken off bolt, just how long is the bolt you removed?  How many threads were holding.   This is not a motor mount it is a water outlet elbow under 5 psi pressure held down by three bolts.  It may be fine if the bolt you removed is long enough to hold.   Probably 4 or 5 threads is enough to hold.

[Paddy]

Doug,

I understand the bolt is not a motor mount but one of three holding the water outlet to the cylinder head.  With that said when I reach through the outlet hole I can feel the bottom of the bolt "sleeves"; the bolts don't travel "through" the cylinder head.  When I place an unbroken bolt in the suspect "sleeve" and through the elbow it doesn't tighten down the length of the bolt and while I didn't count the number of threads "above" the elbow, I'd call it at about 4-5.  It's definitely shallow.

[Doug]

If you cannot get the broken bolt out, you can use a washer under the bolt head to take up the slack so that it will tighten down. �If you are sure it is a bolt that is broken off down in the hole, you could use the drilling and picking technique others mentioned to try to get it out or just try to use it as it is and don't overtighten that bolt.  Also, as others mentioned, there is always a machine shop.  What is a major undertaking for us and a nerve racking event, is just another 30 minutes work for a machinist.   For example they would be using a drill with a base rather than a hand drill, they would have reverse thread bolts, they could put heat to it with an acetylene torch, etc.    It may cost you $40 or $80 but it may make you feel better.

[rocketeer]

"There is one other thing that can speed this process and that is reverse (left-handed) drill bits. Here's why, if the drill is running backwards there's a decent chance that at some point it may actually spin the remaining bolt/stud out of the hole."

So tell me this one again slowly. �The left-handed drill bit is something I can pick up at a hardware store or Sears? �And when I use it do I run my drill in reverse as well?

Yes, and Yes.



Paddy:

The elbow bolt holes do not go all the way through into the water jacket. The required bolts are size 3/8"-16 x 1 1/8". You're most likely, unless very lucky, not going to find 1 1/8" bolts so what I do is cut down longer ones. By the way, use one lockwasher per bolt and no flat washer.

Larry

[Carls_jeep]

I don't know how many threads there are in the bolt hole but in your case I would use a stud in the hole. That way the stud would be bottomed out in the hole so you could use all the threads you can for strength. most parts stores have studs, so measure how long you need it and get one.

The change of getting the remaining broken bolt out without damaging the threads is slim using a hand drill and even a left hand drill to remove it is unlikely to work. The times a left hand drill removed the bolt an easy out could have done it too. The problem with easy outs is few people know how to use them and even if you are good at using them they can get you in trouble. For a left hand drill to work the bolt has to be loose enough in the threads for it to screw out and that is unlikely.

Use a stud and move to the next problem.

[jamesr]

Good advise Larry.  Jim

[Paddy]

Thanks. �I think I'm going to move on and when I get the cylinder head off take it to a machine shop and let the experts handle it.

[jamesr]

While rebuilding mine, I did that a time or too also.  Jim

[Doug]

Larry, I have seen some heads where all the holes were blind bolt holes.  For what it's worth, on many of the heads the bolts are through bolts to the water jacket.  My Willys civilian head and a GPW head in my possession both have two of the three bolt holes open to the coolant below.   I wish there were all blind because mine have been an occassion for leaking and requiring resealing.  




I counted the threads and there was a total of 7-8 threads in each of the through holes.

One other thought on this subject, sometimes machine shops will burn a really stuck low grade steel bolt out of a cast iron block with a oxy torch, I think as a last case scenario.   Machine shops have 5 tricks for everyone one that the non-expert has.

[rocketeer]

I probably should have said not ALL the holes go through. Usually there's at least one closed. My bad.

For the open holes put thread sealer on the bolts before inserting.

Larry

[rocketeer]

The times a left hand drill removed the bolt an easy out could have done it too. �

I'm going to gracefully disagree. Here's why. A tapered extractor functions by applying sideways/outward pressure which is actually detrimental to turning the bolt loose. The harder you apply pressure to the extractor the tighter your making the bolt in the hole.

A reverse drill, however, applies no side pressure in the hole and once the remaining metal is thin enough the drill bit grabs the metal and creates circular pressure on it inducing it to turn. Your odds of spinning the bolt/stud out are significantly greater with a reverse drill.

I'm not saying a reverse drill is the cure-all. What I'm saying is that drilling it out may be the only way to go and if it is, then a reverse drill gives you an edge.

Larry

[Carls_jeep]

Larry, in the hundreds of bolts I have removed there were few times the bolt was loose enough to be removed with a left hand drill bit. 90% of the time the reason the bolt broke off is the threads were frozen together in the hole.

The only times I was successful at using a left hand drill bit was when I could move the broken part with a center punch but it was to deep in the hole to be easy to remove. Then I would try the left hand drill and most the time it worked.

I have removed broken bolts and studs from almost anything you can mention. What I hate is when someone try's to remove it and drills off center, uses an easy out and breaks it off, breaks a drill bit in the bolt or many of the other things people dream up to remove them and only make it worse for the machinist.

I usually start by mounting the part in a mill or drill press and centering in up to drill the bolt. If I can't use a drill press or mill I will do it with a hand drill. When the drill starts into the part if the bolt moves I will then use a left hand drill bit to see if it will come out. If it backs up and stops I then go to a right hand drill and drill a hole through the bolt, soak it with penetrating oil and use a punch that fits in the threaded hole and tap on it a little. Then I take some square easy outs and drive one in and turn the broken part back and forth until it finally comes out. The spiral easy outs are almost worthless.

However, 90% of the time the bolt is frozen in the bolt hole and will not move. I have drilled them and chiseled the remainder out as described by someone, burned them out, used heat and wax and penetrating oil. Most the time removing broken bolts is very hard and takes a lot of patience. Sometimes it would take a week or longer just working on it a few minutes each day until it starts moving.

If you have to get it out fast the only way is to drill it over size and install a heli coil insert or one of the other inserts available. I like removing broken bolts because it is a challenge.

I guess we can agree to disagree though.