Elbow water outlet

[Paddy]

While working on my cooling system, after I removed the radiator and hoses I moved to remove the elbow water outlet on the top of the cylinder head.  The prior owner beat me to it and when they replaced the elbow water outlet they replaced one of the bolts with a non spec bolt that I broke the head off of.  I was able to remove the elbow water outlet, and discovered there was no thermostat in it.

Two questions:  (1)  Any advice on how to remove the bolt frozen in the cylinder head?  I have about 1/2 an inch protruding and it's currently soaking in WD-40.  My thought was to allow it soak over night, then attempt to turn it out with a pair of vice grips.

(2) Am I correct in believing there is supposed to be a thermostat underneath the elbow water outlet?

Thanks.

[mud pie]

You must be related to my dad.....  

That's exactly what he thought (apparently, I found his "whoopsie" long after he passed on).  He put the thermostat on the cylinder head and thought the elbow held it in place.  When I pulled the elbow off last week during my rebuild is when I found the stat flipped on it's side.

The 'stat is actually UP in the elbow, right before the 90 degree bend.  It's held in place by the retainer.

Please take note that I'm not making fun of you by your question.  Reading it reminded me of my dad, it made me think of him and smile.  I meant no offense.

[Carls_jeep]

take about an 8 oz hammer and tap on the end of the broken bolt several times. Then clamp the vise grips tightly on it and gently move it back and forth but don't try to turn it if it refuses to turn. Let it soak another day and tap on it again and try to turn it. When it starts turning don't go any farther than it will turn easily. Keep working it back and forth until you work it out. Try to turn it out more than you turn it back.

If that fails use a propane torch or an oxy/acetylene torch and heat the area around the bolt just a little more than it takes to melt a wax candle on the bolt threads. Let the wax soak in and the bolt cool as you try to move the bolt.

I hope they didn't force a fine thread bolt in the coarse threads.

When you put new bolts in use some anti seize on the bolts. Use a 160-170 deg thermostat and a 7 psi radiator cap. Be sure and put the motor on the thermostat toward the head.

[Paddy]

Hey thanks no worries.  I actually read the mechanics manual and the parts list and understand that it's held in place by the "thermostat retainer."  I found them both of course on line at Walck's.  But just so I understand the thermostat actually is place up inside the elbow water outlet and is then held "up there" in place by the thermostat retainer, is that correct?

[Paddy]

Carlsjeep.  In comparing the thread on the top of the broken bolt to the threads on the bolts that I was able to remove they both appear to be the same course thread.

Not that I understand the markings on the tops of the bolts but the one that broke has a different marking, and I suspect that indicates that they used a weaker bolt.

Any thought why they would have operated the engine without a thermostat?  

And would operating the engine without a thermostat cause any issues/damage of concern and if so, what?

Thanks

[Carls_jeep]

Some take the thermo out because the engine may be running hot. without the thermo the engine has a hard time getting up to operating temp.

The lines on the head of a bolt tell the hardness. No lines or two lines is a grade 2, three lines is a grade 5. and each line above three adds a grade number. So what you do is count the lines on the head and add two and that is the grade of the bolt.

If that broken bolt is a grade 2 be very careful trying to remove it.

[Doug]

when you replace the thermostat, do not get the cheap one sold at walcks. �It does not contain an air relief valve and will allow an air pocket to form at the top of the engine and allow it to vapor lock and overheat. �Get a thermostat with an air relief valve. �About $2 more. �These tall engines are prone to form air pockets. �The little 1/8" diameter brass tab in the theremostat is the air relief valve. �

[Paddy]

Wonderful, it's a grade 2; it has no lines on it.  Other than WD 40 any other penetrating lubricant that you can recommend?

[Paddy]

Doug, thanks for the great photos and the recommendation on the air relief valve thermostat.

[p3ferris]

Take a nut place it on top of the bolt that is broke, weld the nut on to the broken bolt.  Then you can take a socket and turn it out carefully.  Some one elses trick I am just passing it on.

[Carls_jeep]

That works real good and what it does is when the nut is welded on the bolt gets hot and expands and loosens the bolt in the hole.

There's a lot of ways to remove broken bolts and it seems I always got the job of removing broken bolts in the shops I worked in.

[Paddy]

Take a nut place it on top of the bolt that is broke, weld the nut on to the broken bolt. �Then you can take a socket and turn it out carefully. �Some one elses trick I am just passing it on.

Here's my problem with that, I already got to work on the  bolt before this recommendation and stripped the threads, and I mean stripped them beyond repair.  Next issue is I don't have a MIG welder.  I soaked it all day, today, tapped it with a ball-peen hammer, heated it ever so slightly with a propane torch, just enough to melt a candle, etc. still no success.

Also drilled into the bolt and try to "grab" it with a bolt extractor, which broke inside the hole I drilled.

Any other recommendations, and or should I go back with a little more heat?  I still have a 1/2 inch to work with.

[p3ferris]

The nut does not screw on, it goes on top and you weld it on through the center of the nut. �If you mess the nut up too much welding it on, weld another on top of that nut.  Do your best on the first nut as it has to hold on to the bolt and not break off.

[Carls_jeep]

Paddy, that's just about where I would get the job. Man, did I hate starting from there.

The following requires you to have a welder so here goes.

Well, take a nut that is the size the bolt is. If it's a 3/8" coarse thread use a 3/8" coarse nut and drill the threads out of the nut so it slips over the bolt. put the nut on the bolt and weld the nut to the bolt. You can put a box wrench on the nut and try moving it but DON'T force it. As it cools it may start turning and if it does be careful to not break it off. PB blaster and liquid wrench are good penetrating oils and there are others. You can continue to tap lightly on the nut and soak it with penetrating oil and trying to move it. �Be sure you tap straight down on the nut, do not use glancing blows or it will break off.

If all this fails you will have to find someone to drill out the easy out with a carbide drill bit then drill the bolt out and retap the hole or put a heli coil in the hole. That is a job for someone that has experience doing it. It's not something to try for the first time.

[rocketeer]

Also drilled into the bolt and try to "grab" it with a bolt extractor, which broke inside the hole I drilled.

If necessary, pay someone to weld the nut on and hope there is enough of the bolt to weld to. Trying to MIG weld to a hardened extractor is a PITA.

Please don't take this personally. I'm saying this for the future benefit of everyone reading this thread. Do NOT ever use extractors, not ever. With very rare exception, it will break and make the problem worse. My personal opinion is the bloody things should be taken off the market.

Here's how to remove a broken bolt if you do not have anything sticking above the surface to weld a nut to.

Very, very carefully drill a small hole dead center through the broken bolt/stud being careful not to drill into the block/head.

Now pick a slightly larger drill bit and drill through the same hole.

Repeat the process with increasingly larger drill bits until you reach the point where you have removed the metal to the point where just the bolt/stud threads themselves are left.

Use an icepick to work the remaining bolt/stud threads loose from the threads in the block/head. Be patient. A small pointed punch can also be used. Once those threads are worked out, you can run a thread chaser in the hole to clean it up. Do NOT use a thread chaser for head retainer bolt holes in the block.

There is one other thing that can speed this process and that is reverse (left-handed) drill bits. Here's why, if the drill is running backwards there's a decent chance that at some point it may actually spin the remaining bolt/stud out of the hole.

Clear as mud? �

Larry