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Offline Frank

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Re: King Pin Question
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2011, 05:45:41 PM »
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Frank, You really need to take a step back and think about what you are saying.

For everyone else, just use the appropriate Willys service manual for your vehicle and you will be fine. On pre-1951 Jeeps the front knuckle will be centered on the axle when the shims are equally divided between the top and bottom. Unequal shimming will cause the knuckle to move one way or the other slightly. Of course there is a lot of leeway in these axles so it probably won't matter much either way.

Here is a cut from a 1950 Willys service manual.




Likewise Bob, So dont worry about the shims, lots of leeway in the axle, run the axle croooked,

3-5 lbs pre load, and some books up to 18 lbs ???

Quite a spread really, So I am going to attempt to explain one more time Bob, Take just the bottom trunnion cap and bearing and stick it in the race on the axle housing,

The flat part of the trunnion cap is the bottom of the knuckle, start adding shims, little building blocks if you will, this will raise the knuckle housing,

Bob, there is quite a bit of thought going in to what I am saying, your just reading a book, not understanding what is happening here,

The lower shims, the little building blocks set the height of the knuckle housing, center it as best as possible,

Offline ventport

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Re: King Pin Question
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2011, 09:55:16 AM »
So obviously the last sentence of paragraph #4 of the Willys manual is wrong, according to Frank.

Offline Frank

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Re: King Pin Question
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2011, 12:16:51 PM »
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So obviously the last sentence of paragraph #4 of the Willys manual is wrong, according to Frank.


Ventport, These old books are the best written well worded manuals that for the most part are very accurate, one this subject however there are a couple things that following the letter of the law if you will that dont really add up,

Now that book quoted for instance has a lighter pre load listed, 3-5 lbs, Which is what I like to lean towards on setting up these axles, rather then the tighter 12-16 or 18 ?

That is a good example, 10 lbs is quite a bit more squeeze, essentially loading the bearing before it even sets down on the ground, and you wonder why the bearings brinnell, theres your pressure, and vibration well just not pay any attention to the centering of the axle, theres your vibration,

What I will do next axle I work on is try to get a comparison between the weight of the pull per .001 of pre load, I am thinking that .002 preload on this bearing would be just fine, and see what that relates to pull,

I have also seen a spec of 80 inch lbs spec pull @ the trunnion stud,

No I follow the books to a point , but sometimes and in some cases its not always 100 % accurate, Its just the nature of the subject, there is sometimes a disconnect between the writers and the engineering ,

Now the original question was if the shims on the bottom trunnion cap where there because of some one who may have not known what they are doing, well at this point if they add up to a selective number that centers the housing,
They did, and leave them the same. and adjust the preload from the top, 3-5 or up to over 15, depending on what book you want to follow,
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 12:21:38 PM by Frank »

Offline Frank

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Re: King Pin Question
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2011, 12:37:46 PM »
"Of course there is a lot of leeway in these axles so it probably won't matter much either way."

Yes Bob, These axles could be taken apart and repaired in the middle of nowhere with a hammer Rock and a screw driver, and maybee a set of vise grips, in a mud puddle,

Filled with just about anything that resembles a lubricant and get you where you need to go,

They also can be carefully cleaned and set up with new components , knuckle housings centered, pre load set,  filled with a correct lubricant, and get you where you need to go for 30 plus years without ever messing with it,



Offline F Bill

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Re: King Pin Question
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2011, 03:41:20 PM »
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"Of course there is a lot of leeway in these axles so it probably won't matter much either way."

Yes Bob, These axles could be taken apart and repaired in the middle of nowhere with a hammer Rock and a screw driver, and maybee a set of vise grips, in a mud puddle,

Filled with just about anything that resembles a lubricant and get you where you need to go,

They also can be carefully cleaned and set up with new components , knuckle housings centered, pre load set, �filled with a correct lubricant, and get you where you need to go for 30 plus years without ever messing with it,



The question is how much improvement is there going to be when you center the knuckle housing over the factory method....will it be noticeable, all other things equal? After all ...when you turn the wheels, the knuckle is no longer aligned perfectly and the joint takes care of it. What is .010 misalignment up and down compared to the misalignment from driving around a corner? Preload is important, yes.

We all want our jeeps to last. Sometimes we have different methods. Sometimes we agree with the book, other times a better way has been found over the years. In any case, we are aiming for the same goal,keeping these fun little beasts running for another day in the woods. Life is too short to waste on name calling, endless arguing, and constant harangueing over pet peeves. If it keeps up I will have to put on my moderator hat, and ya don't want that, do ya?? :o
Owner of the world famous?? Pintojeep 3A and one yet to be named stock project 3A.
Based in central TX and upstate NY.

Offline Frank

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Re: King Pin Question
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2011, 06:03:50 PM »
Quote
Quote
"Of course there is a lot of leeway in these axles so it probably won't matter much either way."

Yes Bob, These axles could be taken apart and repaired in the middle of nowhere with a hammer Rock and a screw driver, and maybee a set of vise grips, in a mud puddle,

Filled with just about anything that resembles a lubricant and get you where you need to go,

They also can be carefully cleaned and set up with new components , knuckle housings centered, pre load set, �filled with a correct lubricant, and get you where you need to go for 30 plus years without ever messing with it,



The question is how much improvement is there going to be when you center the knuckle housing over the factory method....will it be noticeable, all other things equal? After all ...when you turn the wheels, the knuckle is no longer aligned perfectly and the joint takes care of it. What is .010 misalignment up and down compared to the misalignment from driving around a corner? Preload is important, yes.

We all want our jeeps to last. Sometimes we have different methods. Sometimes we agree with the book, other times a better way has been found over the years. In any case, we are aiming for the same goal,keeping these fun little beasts running for another day in the woods. Life is too short to waste on name calling, endless arguing, and constant harangueing over pet peeves. If it keeps up I will have to put on my moderator hat, and ya don't want that, do ya?? :o

No need for the mod hat,
I will be good, Now your turning the wheel taking things out of alignment, No the axle is still straight, and yes the joint allows it to transfer power @ a angle, but is still straight

These U joints and cv joints can handle one load, only, and one angle,

In my process of researching this subject I read up on "Thompson Couplings" these could handle both, axial and lateral,

With only one joint in the shaft like these axles only one angle , (steering), if you had 2 joints in the power transfer shaft, then okay, �I discovered this trying to run a hydralic pump off only one u joint, could not make the shaft true enough , needed 2

Also Bill,

"The question is how much improvement is there going to be when you center the knuckle housing over the factory method.."

What I am trying to point out is that what is written in the book is not the factory method, not @ all, There is no way that Old Man Willies would have had Rosie the Riveter fiddling around with taking shims on and off, dialing in the knuckle,

Waste of time, Some sort of tool or fixture installed in the housing, lower gap measured and proper selective shim installed,

Also simply installing all the thickness of shims and then taking them out to set pre load, only and no thought to centering, No I really dont think so,

What really sells if for me is years later the world renowned Japanese machinists, centered up this axle housing very much the same way with selective shims, a very critical aspect in the replicated axle because of the location of the axle seal, off just a fuzz there and the seal leaks,

These shims take up machining irregularitys, By following the book word for word, basically states that Old man Willys had the knuckle perfectly centered something the Japanese could not do some 10 years later,

Maybee,


Preload is important, yes.

"Also, in case the main purpose is to prevent false
brinelling, the exact amount of preload needs be
calculated just enough to prohibit the creation of
clearance by vibration load, so as to prevent rolling
element from being vibrated by outside vibration
when shaft is not rotating."

And Yes bearing preloading is a rather exacting, in my humble opinion the ranges given in the books are rather broad, not exacting @ all,
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:34:35 PM by Frank »

Offline Frank

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Re: King Pin Question
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2011, 03:34:15 PM »
Okay,

I was wondering what this core axle would be good for,



When I have time I will get this cleaned up and set up and start playing around with king pin bearing pre load, It would seem that with such a large spread in pre load, it should be narrowed down,

The reason I think 16 lbs of pre load is a bit to much is the happiest trunnion bearings I have seen the knuckle had very little pre load, and reading up on bearing pre load they tell me it is exacting,
I dont think anyone would argue the fact that a 3- 16lb range is not exacting, as mentioned earlier a excess pre load adds to the potential of brinnelling,
Now there is no difference in the bearings of the older axles vrs this newer one, None, same exact thing, �Jeep or Toyota, Timken or Toyo yoyo,

However in the most recent design of the axle of this type, they went with altogether the wrong bearing, entirely the wrong thrust angle for this application,



This bearing with the steeper thrust angle is correct, easy to see,



Now the greatest bearing pre load that I ever seen or worked with is .008 in a transmission with a aluminum case, this tight pre load is ( I think) required because the aluminum will expand quicker and more then the steel,

When setting the shafts up this tight you cannot turn them by hand, very tight, So What I want to do is get a idea between actual thickness of pre load and lb of pull,
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 04:02:57 PM by Frank »