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Topic Summary

Posted by: danorte
« on: January 19, 2011, 02:33:37 PM »

Thank you all, will recheck this weekend to see if load, drain or other abnormalities. North
Posted by: Carls_jeep
« on: January 14, 2011, 11:33:58 PM »

Yep, the alternator can have a bad diode that will drain the battery. I had that happen on my Jeep.
Posted by: rocketeer
« on: January 14, 2011, 04:50:03 PM »

Quote
It could be a bad battery. The battery may not pass a load test.
Very possible. I've seen it before.

Here's a little test. With the ignition off, remove the hot cable from the battery and see if there is any spark. Connect a voltmeter between the cable and the battery post and see if you get any reading. You might have a draw on the battery with the ignition off that is draining it down.

Larry
Posted by: Carls_jeep
« on: January 14, 2011, 03:10:35 PM »

It could be a bad battery. The battery may not pass a load test.
Posted by: danorte
« on: January 14, 2011, 12:48:35 PM »

No, three wire following Doug's pictoral. Meter on the battery shows, 14+ charging volts. Now you all have got me thinking even more so will recheck all this weekend if the snow doesn't show. North
Posted by: rocketeer
« on: January 14, 2011, 11:45:28 AM »

Quote
Thanks carlsjeep. When this jeep sits for a while it takes a bit to start it up in the winter. Up in the forest it did not start right away after being run for 1 hr. The battery is new, alternator is new and charging fine. However after 3 tries it seems the battery was drained. Hiked out to hiway and good samaritan drove into woods and gave me a jump. Started right up. Hence my diagnosis pointed to starter. I have all new cables. This weekend will check all over again, if the weather is ok. Thanks again. North
Actually, the fact that it started right up with a jump would indicate that the starter is not the problem. What leads you to believe it is charging correctly? Three attempts to start it should not kill a fully charged battery. Is your alternator a one wire setup?

Larry
Posted by: danorte
« on: January 14, 2011, 10:40:19 AM »

Thanks carlsjeep. When this jeep sits for a while it takes a bit to start it up in the winter. Up in the forest it did not start right away after being run for 1 hr. The battery is new, alternator is new and charging fine. However after 3 tries it seems the battery was drained. Hiked out to hiway and good samaritan drove into woods and gave me a jump. Started right up. Hence my diagnosis pointed to starter. I have all new cables. This weekend will check all over again, if the weather is ok. Thanks again. North
Posted by: Carls_jeep
« on: January 13, 2011, 07:55:05 PM »

Well, the coils in a 12v starter have the resistance to withstand about 15 seconds of continuous current. The 6v coils have about half the resistance of the 12v coils so when you put 12v on them and hold the starter on for about 30 seconds they will begin to glow and melt the insulation and start shorting out.

The time frame is not an absolute law BUT, the longer you keep the starter engaged trying to start the engine the hotter the coils will get and soon they will glow red and short out. It's recommended that you let the starter cool for about a minute between the attempts to start but hardly anyone does that.

The newer starters that use permanent magnets are different but can still get burned up by over use.

Does that help clear it up?

EDIT: NEW ENGINE, does the engine turn over by hand easily? Have you pulled the plugs and tried to turn the engine by hand? Your experience of slow turning engine is with a Chevy is it not? That was a different issue than these starters.

My experience with 6v starters on 12v is they turn fast in the summer and slower in the winter and that is what my Jeep is doing now. Last summer the engine turned over very fast and as the weather got colder it turned slower. Some of the slow turning was the cold weather and cold oil.

A 6v starter on 6v always turns a little slow, even in the summer and in the winter they are hard to turn over and using 12v helps them a lot.
Posted by: danorte
« on: January 13, 2011, 05:02:16 PM »

OK, new plugs, new engine, new rebuilt carb x 2. Not issues. issue is starter. minus 11 here so not using at this time. I have had many old vehicles and have had starters develope severe resistance when they got hot from the engine heat. I do understand the 10- 30 sec rule. So will see if local can rebuild mine. Thanks for all the info. North
Posted by: Carls_jeep
« on: January 12, 2011, 11:31:21 PM »

Yep, could be bad cables or a bad battery. I can't see a 6v starter turning slow on 12v with good cables and battery.
Posted by: p3ferris
« on: January 12, 2011, 06:59:13 PM »

General rule 10 seconds as previously mentioned.  
check the Grounds making sure that they are of proper size and they are all there. Second is the size of pos and neg cables.  If they are too small they will cause the slow turning of the starter.  This is a must.
Posted by: RA472A
« on: January 11, 2011, 10:07:53 AM »

If it's turning over that slowly, I'd replace the condenser before I got into an expensive starter swap.  That's why mine was doing also.  You can also try to tweak your distributor just a bit to see if it helps starting.  Never underestimate the power of NEW spark plugs either.  Once they get fouled, I'd replace.  Just my $.02
Posted by: Carls_jeep
« on: January 05, 2011, 02:27:58 PM »

actually with the original 6v coils in the starter using 12v on them would increase the starting torque of the starter but at the same time create more heat in the coils. They could actually turn red if held on to long. I think 30 seconds would be excessive for a 6v starter on 12v. I wouldn't recommend holding it on for over 10 seconds. Count one thousand and one, one thousand and two out to 10 and that is a long time to hold the starter on. The engine should start right off when it is summer time if everything is right. �

It sounds like you may have a carb problem if the engine would not restart. Perhaps the carb flooded or was starved for fuel.

I think to satisfy you mind you should buy the upgraded starter from Walck's but don't be surprised if you still have the hard start issue.
Posted by: danorte
« on: January 05, 2011, 01:29:09 PM »

Thank you all. I guess what I am saying is with old starter coils they need much more electicity to start when the starter is warm by eitherthe motor or by starting the jeep. If my jeep does not start right away and I do not try more than the 30 sec rule then on occaision it will drain the new battery. Happened way back in the forest, so just want to avoid it in the future by rebuild. I did find rebuilt starter 6vlt from Walcks for 199.00 and for an additional 25.00 they would upgrade to 12 v. Anyone done this?? thanks again. North
Posted by: rocketeer
« on: January 05, 2011, 12:17:27 PM »

There is a 12 volt starter that will work but at $329.99 it's pricey. In addition you would have to make modifications to the starting system if your current starter is the pushrod variety. You would need to add a solenoid, extra wiring, and a different ignition switch, or a starter button. If your current starter is working OK, I'd stick with it. One thing to keep in mind when operating a 6 volt starter in a 12 volt system is not to spin it too long, it will heat up faster.

http://www.kaiserwillys.com/product/2342/willys-jeep-electrical-hi-torque-12-volt-starter-motors-parts-accessories

Larry