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Author Topic: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.  (Read 429 times)

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Offline Chuck W.

Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« on: November 25, 2020, 02:16:12 PM »
Has anyone ever found a solid fix for the fuel level and water temp gauge issues in the single gauge cluster models? The regulator in the fuel gauge on my jeep was burned out when I got it and previous owner had installed individual aftermarket gauges in holes cut in the dash. I removed the gauges and repaired the holes in the dash and replaced both cluster gauges with the Crown gauges, new sending units and new wiring harness. Fuel gauge moves just a little and temp gauge pegs out on the hot side.
I'm going to install a mechanical temperature gauge in a bracket under the dash for now, don't want to take a chance of running the engine hot, but would really like to have only the original gauges. I have not done any trouble-shooting yet, will have to pull the cluster back out of the dash.
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline Rus Curtis

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2020, 10:57:21 PM »
Chuck,
Unfortunately, I haven't gotten my hands dirty on one of these cluster gauges.  So, I don't know any more about them than what I read.  So far, after scanning the 3B Page at two different places, I pick up on a few things. 

First, the older of the two gauges is only 6V and found mostly on DJs and has an external regulator. 

Second, The later version of the gauge (Stewart Warner)  can be both 6V or 12V.  The 12V has an internal regulator and will have the jumper wire between the temp gauge and the fuel gauge.  This fuel gauge will have 3 posts.

https://cj3b.info/Tech/FuelGauge.html

https://cj3b.info/Siblings/DJDetails/DJ3ASpeedometer.html

These articles contained a lot of detail and those wiring harnesses helped to trace the wires to see what hooks up where.  The test with the engine off seemed like a good start to determine if a gauge is good or bad.  You state your fuel gauge has a bad regulator. The above link suggests that the pegging temp is due to a possible bad fuel gauge.  It goes further to say that it's possible to fry the temp gauge if left on too long in this condition.

I would guess that another fuel gauge (12V) with a regulator may be needed.   I wonder if they can be rebuilt?

'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2020, 10:53:02 AM »
Thanks, Rus. The CJ3B page is where I started. The regulator in the fuel gauge is suppose to reduce the 12 volts to 6 volts for both gauges, but if there is a bad ground, it will cause both gauges to be powered by 12 volts. Both my gauges were fried. It's not a good system, in my opinion. The voltage regulator in the fuel gauge is a mechanical  oscillating type. I tried the replacement Crown gauges, but didn't have a lot of confidence because of the Crown poor quality and I was not disappointed!  If I could find NOS 6 volt gauges, it would be easy to power them with a separate solid state voltage regulator, but so far, no luck finding good NOS gauges. I was hoping that maybe someone has found an aftermarket 12 volt solid-state gauge that would fit the cluster and look good. Had not thought about having these old damaged gauges rebuilt, may contact somebody like Bob's Speedometer and see what they say. Would be nice if they could convert the gauges to straight 12 volts.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 10:55:25 AM by Chuck W. »
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline Rus Curtis

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2020, 11:06:50 AM »
I wasn't sure but assumed you had 12V.  I think that attaching an external regulator could work but didn't want to toss that into the equation initially.


But, if you want (hold on to your hats), there are some NOS gauges available:

I have no way of knowing anything but what I see.

https://www.willysjeepparts.com/Fuel_Gauges.htm

https://www.willysjeepparts.com/Temperature_Gauges.htm

I assume based on what I've read that KS is all 6V.

I noticed offerings from KW and Walck's offered replacements.   Are these the Crown replacements you reference?

Back to rebuilding, I had all mine rebuilt (including 12V for fuel).  Have you checked to see if anyone would be willing?
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2020, 12:37:48 PM »
Thanks. I have seen those gauges, but they don't match my parts list. For my serial number, temp should be 914923 and fuel should be 919362. These are listed as Stewart-Warner 6/12 volt.
Yes, the Walck replacements are Crown.
I assume you have individual gauges?
Right now, I am starting to lean in the direction of having these gauges converted to electronic. Bob's Speedometer has some interesting info on this. Who did your gauges?

1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline SteveKfl

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2020, 02:16:08 PM »
As one compares speedo clusters, keep in mind that not all of them are the same diameter, and some reverse the fuel/temp gauge locations.  Many years ago I was all excited about being able to get one of the KS fancy style speedo cluster, but the diameter was not the same, smaller if I remember right???
My Concept Roadster
62 DJ3A Dispatcher Half Top

Offline Rus Curtis

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2020, 10:09:18 PM »
I assume you have individual gauges? .... Who did your gauges?

Yes, mine are individual.

I sent mine into Williamson's. 

https://williamsons.com/

When you look through their gallery, you'll see they've done work on panels with multiple gauges so a cluster may be possible.

Mine (as posted on the old site):



They even reset my odometer to zero!
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2020, 08:43:15 PM »
Those gauges look really nice, Rus!
Steve, the only multi-gauge cluster that I have ever seen on the late CJ3B is this style:

You can see the 1-1/2" diameter water temp gauge that I installed below the dash as a temporary measure, but still hoping to get the gauges in the cluster to function correctly.
I have the original water temp and fuel gauge that I removed from my cluster, and I plan to contact one of the gauge restorers and see if they can be converted to electronic and keep the original faces.


« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 08:45:33 PM by Chuck W. »
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline SteveKfl

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2020, 08:39:25 AM »
I agree, and it is the same for my 62 DJ3A.  I was referring to the referenced article and some other comments about cluster speedos in various vehicles.  They are not all the same but at first glance would seem so.  It all depends on how "model accurate" you're trying to be, and what is still available.  In the pics provided, you can see the Temp original reads from left to right H-C, while the installed gauge is the opposite.  The installed Fuel gauge has more hash marks on it as well, from the original.
 
Since both gauges are mechanical, it seems like a big expense to convert to electronic which might be more fragile, and not one could see the conversion if same faces are retained.  Sometimes "less is more".  I have LED readout gauges added to one of my trucks and they are giving me troubles with readouts and accuracy.  A resistor or a ground problem are much easier to troubleshoot.  Just thinking out loud from my LED experience.  I added Autometer "Vinntage style" gauges to my project. to resemble "old school" look.
My Concept Roadster
62 DJ3A Dispatcher Half Top

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2020, 11:56:20 AM »
Quote
In the pics provided, you can see the Temp original reads from left to right H-C, while the installed gauge is the opposite.  The installed Fuel gauge has more hash marks on it as well, from the original.
 
That's the first thing I didn't like about the aftermarket gauges, (besides the fact that they didn't work!) they are both backwards!  I'm not as worried about the fuel gauge, I can always use a stick, but I have to have a water temp gauge. I wish I could find a pure mechanical (capillary tube type) water temp gauge that would fit the cluster. I'm going to make some calls next week to some of the repair/conversion shops and see what they say. Should be interesting.
Do you think the 1-1/2" auxiliary water temp gauge I mounted below the dash distracts from the gauge cluster? I'm not happy with it but it looks better that the 2" gauges and I guess that's the way it will be for now.

BTW, the replacement gauges I bought are not Crown, but Omix-ADA.....still poor quality.
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline SteveKfl

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2020, 03:02:32 PM »
Funny you should ask about the hanging guage.  I was thinking the former cane handle e-brake locaation would make an interesting location for it and not hanging down by your legs.
My Concept Roadster
62 DJ3A Dispatcher Half Top

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2020, 07:59:59 PM »
I don't think I want to cut any new holes in the dash! It took a while to repair the two 2" gauge holes that the previous owner cut. I'm trying to keep this one as stock as possible.
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2020, 03:34:26 PM »
Well, I found a New Old Stock Stewart-Warner 424583 water temp gauge. I'm going to use an IC7806 to drop the voltage to 6 volts and feed the gauge directly. We shall see!
At this point, I am not going to worry about the fuel gauge, although I may put my old gauge back in the cluster so at least it will look correct.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 07:47:29 PM by Chuck W. »
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2021, 06:56:10 PM »
In my quest to have operating gauges in my 1964 CJ3B, I think I have found an answer. I found a vendor on e-bay who has NOS Stewart-Warner Temperature gauges. I also found a new fuel gauge at Walck's. This gauge fits a 6 volt Jeep truck/wagon and does not have the internal mechanical voltage regulator. The gauge face is identical to the CJ3B gauge, but the two studs on the back are vertical instead of horizontal, so the case will need some work.


I bought two 12-to-6 volt solid state voltage regulators that are specifically designed to be used on older gauges.


So at this point, with everything wired up on the bench and connected to a battery, the gauges and sending units seem to be working. The fuel sender seems to be a bit sticky, so I may order another one.

Now I need to pull the gauge cluster out of the jeep and swap the speedometer head, glass and bezel into my modified housing and see if it will work. At best, I'll have a working temperature and fuel gauge. At worst, I will have the incorrect Crown gauges out of my cluster.
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2

Offline Chuck W.

Re: Fuel and Water Temp gauge issues....again.
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2021, 03:36:08 PM »
Small setback; went to crank the jeep the other day and the battery was low. Charged the battery and checked the voltage, 12.5. Started the engine and checked the voltage at the battery again, 12.5. So, looks like the generator is not charging. I pulled the generator and the voltage regulator and took them to Southern Armature for rebuilding and testing.

While the battery was out, I decided to tackle the gauges again. I removed the cluster and began swapping out the incorrect aftermarket gauges. So far, so good!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 09:03:34 PM by Chuck W. »
1964 CJ3B
1952 M38 w/M100 trailer
1966 M274A2