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Author Topic: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death  (Read 21133 times)

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Offline Carls_jeep

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2013, 11:51:01 PM »
Well, since it's a known fact that the sulfur EP additives do eat brass and it's known that the EP additives are in everything from GL2 to GL5 you can expect those to damage brass parts. The damage and intensity of damage will increase as the GL number increases and the miles add up.

In many of the threads I have read about tranny oil some said Willys recommended the GL1 mineral oil. My manuals don't mention that, at least I haven't seen it yet.

The other consideration is, when did the GL3, 4 and 5 come out? If the only oil they had up to the late or middle 1950's or even 1960 was GL1 or GL2 then it was used in everything. GL2 is a low EP oil and may not hurt the brass much.

The truth is, we know that mineral oil will not hurt brass and engine oil and ISO oil are mineral oils. Since we know this why would you want to put an oil known to attack brass in a transmission with brass parts in it?

EDIT: Thinking about the possible brass alloy changes I don't see that as a problem. The alloy will still have copper as the main component and that is quite possibly what is being attacked. The erosion of the copper is probably what causes the particles to flake off. Normal wear and tear will cause some brass color to be in the oil even with mineral oil.  
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 12:02:47 AM by Carlsjeep »

Offline Ryan_M

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2013, 02:53:51 PM »
I drained the GL-1 oil today after having replaced the GL-5 stuff a couple weeks ago. There is still a small amount of brass but I am hoping that what I'm seeing now is just residual flakes. I've put about 235 miles on the Jeep since this new oil was added. Never mind those pine needles, they were already in the drain pan and did NOT come from the transmission  ;D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 02:54:49 PM by Ryan_M »
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Offline Gunslinger

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2013, 07:32:15 PM »
Well, now I'm a bit confused:
I put a GL 5 oil in my tranny and t case three years ago, it's draining now, still cold here so well look at it Wednesday when it's all out of the cases.
So here is my quandaries, sure could use some help as I'm not convinced we came to a conclusion on tHis topic.
My Jeep Universal service manual says to use GL 4 80/90 weight oil.
Carl says 30/40 weight engine oil, and I believe that is a fair choice.  John Deere used that in the 2000 model year 450 Crawler hydrostatic tranSmissions.
Many of you chose GL 1 oil, not sure where that came from, caution maybe?  Does GL 1 have no sulphur at all?
Has anyone used Amsoil synthetic lube, it is reccomended for Chrysler manual transmissions, I'm planning on calling them tomorrow to see if it will hurt yellow metal, it's a GL5MT 1, and Mac I think you had difficulty with that one right?

Sorry guys, not trying to be a smart - - -, just trying to figure this out just as you are.
Todd
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Offline athawk11

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Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2013, 09:27:48 PM »
Gun,

The GL-1 has no sulfur.  It's straight mineral oil.  It has no sulfur smell, which can confuse when trying to chase a leak between the tranny and bell housing.

I used Valvoline synthetic GL-5 with the MT-1 rating after reading it was safe for gold metals.  I drained it and found gold metal flakes.  I joined many by moving to the GL-1.  

I've read many posts on this subject.  One in particular was at the 2A page.  I believe it was SamCJ2A that mentioned mineral oil was the recommended oil in the 1945 manual.  I can't confirm this, as I don't have that manual.

Tim
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Offline Macgraham

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Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2013, 09:59:41 PM »
 :-/ :oI called a Valvoline oil tech. in Ashland, Ky. and he was well aware of the problem with our transmissions as well as others such as early Fiats. Gl1 is the oil that he recommended. Another question I have is related to the brass spindle bushing in the Dana 25 front housing. Would these also be damaged by the GL-5 oil? Does it affect copper? You're thoughts appreciated.  :-? :-[
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 10:00:51 PM by Macgraham »

Offline Gunslinger

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2013, 10:07:00 PM »
I used the same GL5 on all my drive line, it was all put in at about the same time.  I just drained all the fluids this past week:
Front and rear diffs looked like used worn out oil, no gold, no other stuff.
Transfer case same deal little,bitmof,shiny stuff but mostly just dirty oil, this implies,that there is very little oil transfer between the two because;  wait for it;  I just drained the transmission and viola, I must be rich given all the gold in that oil !!! Whoopppeeeee!  Not so cool.

Has anyone torn down a tranny yet to see what the damage is?
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Offline Macgraham

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Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2013, 10:18:54 PM »
In my case I had about 200 miles on my transmission since I overhauled it. All was new except 2nd gear and the housing(case). I put in GL-5 oil. All was working well but I just decided to drain it to renew the oil after a break in period. I too struck gold but changed to GL-1 and decided not to worry about it since it still runs fine. It was good in 1949 so it should be fine now. No jumping out of gear or noises so I'm happy. :) :) :)

Offline athawk11

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Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2013, 10:37:02 PM »
Mac,

I wish I had a good answer.

The recommended oil for the Diffs is a EP (Extreme Pressure) hypoid oil.  They would typically be the GL-4 or 5 oils for hypoid gears.  I guess the hypoid gears are more important to protect than the bushing.  Maybe there are different forces on the bushing vs the synchros.

http://www.cj3apage.com/index/Tech_Tips/operation_and_care_manual/Manual%20Lube%20Chart.htm

Tim

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Online Bob W

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2013, 06:22:47 AM »
Quote
Another question I have is related to the brass spindle bushing in the Dana 25 front housing. Would these also be damaged by the GL-5 oil?

There is no gear lube out at the spindle bushing.
Bob W

Offline Macgraham

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Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2013, 11:06:50 AM »
I thought that might be the case but wasn't sure. Thank you, Bob.

Offline Ryan_M

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2014, 09:01:45 PM »
It's been awhile since we kicked this dead horse so how about another round?

As documented in another thread, I have just completed an overhaul of both the T-90 transmission and D-18 transfer case in my M38. All brass parts were replaced with US made NOS stuff. The exception being the brass-faced thrust washers which were purchased from Walck's and are presumably new and presumably foreign.

After the rebuild and reinstallation, I filled the trans and TC� with GL-1 mineral oil and ran the jeep through the gears several times while it was up on jack stands. I did not engage 4wd as I only had the rear wheels off the ground.

After that, I took a couple easy laps around the neighborhood, gently running up and down through the gears and in and out of 4wd. Shifts were crisp and near perfect - no grinding or problems.

With maybe 15 minutes of total running time (50 or 60 total shifts?), I drained the fresh fluid and found it to be full of brass flakes.



I'm not too worried as I'm thinking it's due solely to the new brass parts breaking in but I thought it was worth noting here. I know there was some thought that these flakes were more prevalent in transmissions that had been rebuilt and it appears that is the case. Some of the flaking blamed on the GL-5 may have been due to "natural causes" afterall. Regardless, I'm still sticking with the GL-1.


I'll be changing the fluid again after 100 or so miles and I wouldn't be surprised to still see some flakes. After that, though, I'd expect they would start to diminish.

I'm curious if anyone else might pay attention to this next time they rebuild a T-90? Athawk, I think you may have a T-90 overhaul in your near future?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 09:02:57 PM by Ryan_M »
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Offline Lee

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Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2014, 11:28:08 AM »
I have read all three pages of this with interest, I have worked as a heavy equipment mechanic for a contractor for nearly 29 years, they use GL-5 gearlube in everything!, granted they have no T 90's but many many, winch drive PTO's ect, with large brass wormgears and the like, and I can honestly say I have never seen a failure due to brass being eaten away or dissolving. I have talked this over with our Mobil oil rep. he said to do severe damage the sulfer would need water to react with to excellerate the reaction to the yellow parts. His recommendation was to use Mobil 1 75-90 synthetic gear oil as it containes no sulfer at all. That's all good but if you look at Herms site he stresses NO Synthetic oil with overdrives!...........Another question, after rebuilding your trans, Why are you guys not changing the break in oil after lets say 500 miles???????, no doubt there will be brass in the oil after replacing new brass parts, as they break in they will shed the hi spots on them, at that point any oil used would show brass when drained, certainly not the fault of sulfer, gl-5 or 50W motor oil.

MHO, Lee ;)
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Offline Mike S

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2014, 02:27:36 PM »
Lee -- I was thinking the same thing... complaints about brass flakes in newly rebuilt T90 transmissions could be caused by a number of things...

New non-ferrous (soft) parts wearing in with use

Poorer alloys being used in new (and presumably foreign-made) soft metal parts

Wear due to poor parts fitment or assembly techniques

OR high sulfur content in some modern oils.

I did a bunch of research and decided to go with Redline 75-90 MT type synthetic after my Jeep mechanic recommended that I use GL-4 gear lubricant in the T90C after rebuild. I will drain after a few hundred miles and expect to see some brass due to parts wearing in. If it continues after break-in, I may re-think my decision.  :o
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Offline Carls_jeep

Re: Transmission Fluid = Creeping Death
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2014, 05:57:06 PM »
I went to the shop and looked in my Willys shop manuals. One just said use transmission oil and the other said to use GL4. There are copies of original shop manuals. I don't know when gear oil began using sulfur in it but I wouldn't take a chance on the brass being damaged by the sulfur additive.

I use 30 wt non detergent in my tranny/transfer cases now and have no issues. Many industrial gear boxes recommend ISO mineral oil generally in the range of 32 to 150 depending on the manufacturer and the applications and operating temps.

I started to use an ISO 100 which is about a 30 wt oil in my tranny but decided it would be easier to find the 30 wt non det. oil so that's what I used.

I agree that you should change the oil after a rebuild at about 500 miles and you can expect to find brass and steel shavings in the oil at that point. If the oil has a golden color to it I believe the oil is breaking down the brass parts and that's not good.