The CJ3A Page CJ3B.info

Author Topic: Uncooperative 3rd gear  (Read 18262 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Uncooperative 3rd gear
« on: July 03, 2016, 06:38:55 PM »
As of today my recently rebuilt T90 started grinding when shifting from 2nd to 3rd. Sometimes it won't engage well and will immediately pop out of third when the clutch is released but will engage smoothly on the next attempt. Double clutching does not help. Once in third, it stays there without issue. All other gear changes are fine.

At the very least I need to pull the tower and have a look.....what am I looking for?
Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi

Offline 1955CJ-5

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2360
  • Karma: +0/-1
  • It wasn't always green....
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 09:24:56 PM »
Shift fork loose on the shift rail?
1955 CJ-5, A friend for 58 years....1951 CJ-3A, a new addition. 1929 Model A Ford Closed Cab Pickup...

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 07:39:49 AM »
Shift forks are tight - that would be too easy, right?

Here's what it looks like inside. Should there be this much slop? If "no", what's missing and what's the fix?

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTmSSRzAzrw&feature=youtu.be[/media]



Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi

Offline athawk11

  • SMF Administrator
  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2818
  • Karma: +0/-1
  • 1949 CJ3A
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 10:39:21 AM »
Ryan,
I can't view the video.  Is it set to "private".  Says I have to log in to view.

Tim
2-1949 CJ3As
1-1946 CJ2A

Offline Oilleaker1

  • Willys Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Automotive Archeology/ Jeep Disease, Green Diseas
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 10:51:30 AM »
If the shift fork is fine, I'd have a look at the synchro assembly and blocking ring.  See how much end float the mainshaft has and if it's pulling away rewards too much. The grinding all of a sudden to me means your blocking ring is going away. Oilly

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 10:57:13 AM »
Video should now be "public". Sorry about that....
Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi

Offline Bob W

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2016, 05:14:56 PM »
There shouldn't be any end play in the main shaft. Is the nut tight on the rear?
Bob W

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 07:03:59 PM »
Quote
There shouldn't be any end play in the main shaft. Is the nut tight on the rear?

This one has an Overdrive so looks like I need to pull that off and see what's going on back there....
Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi

Offline Oilleaker1

  • Willys Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Automotive Archeology/ Jeep Disease, Green Diseas
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 07:22:49 PM »
Way too much. The rear main bearing new with no end float has about .005. Shim the spacer, or buy a wider spacer between the rear main bearings and spacer on the main shaft. Take a hard look at the synchro springs that hold the detent bars and also 3rd gear blocking ring. Oilly

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 08:38:46 PM »
The main shaft had no perceptible end play after the rebuild this spring. Synchro assembly was new. I'm wondering if I lost the snap ring in the OD and that gear assembly has started to loosen? If so, I owe it to my 3rd gear to warn of imminent OD disaster.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 08:39:20 PM by Ryan_M »
Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi

Offline Oilleaker1

  • Willys Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Automotive Archeology/ Jeep Disease, Green Diseas
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2016, 07:56:45 AM »
Now that makes sense. You are OD scaring me again.  :o

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2016, 09:55:13 AM »
Quote
Now that makes sense. You are OD scaring me again.� :o

No kidding. Me too. Fireworks at Ryan's? Nope, just exploding OD's.
Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2016, 07:34:17 PM »
I pulled the OD off this afternoon to have a look.

Here's what I found with the snap ring. It was was present and accounted for but had popped out of its groove. As soon as I touched it with a screwdriver it and the washer fell right over. Not good.



The bowl gear had loosened considerably but had not come completely undone, hence the mainshaft slop. Talk about playing with fire.

I got on the horn with Advance Adapters and learned a couple things. After I brought the tech up to speed on the past few days' events I asked how I could better prevent a $6 snap ring from wiggling free and destroying an entire Jeep. He told me that the snap ring "batches" vary depending on the composition of the metal alloy used. Some have better spring tension than others and, as a result, some are more prone to coming loose.

Holy cow. Not exactly a comforting statement.

He also informed me that the snap ring design itself was overhauled and beefed up roughly 3 months ago. Since I happen to have another brand new Saturn in the box that arrived last week, here's a few pics that show the difference between the "new" style snap ring and the old one ("old" as in one that came with this OD when I bought it new at the end of 2015). There's no question the new one is heavier and appears better suited to stay in place. That also means it was a real bear to install but I did get it in there.





And as for getting them seated - I am certain I did it correctly the first time. After I install these snap rings I always use a screw driver to rotate them 360 degrees in both directions so I can verify all corners of it are firmly seated in the groove.

I have struggled in the past to torque the bowl gear to the specified 100-120 ft/lbs and still have the tabbed washer line up but I was able to get it to just over 100 ft/lbs this time. AA tells me anything over 100 is sufficient (but don't go any higher than 125 ft/lbs) while Herm says anything over 75 ft/lbs is good enough.

When I installed the new snap ring today I did discover a bunch of metal shavings in the groove, presumably ground out by the old snap ring making its exit. I don't know what permanent effect this had on the groove and there isn't much I can do now. I cleaned it up and put everything back together.



A test drive around the neighborhood shows improved shifts from 2nd to 3rd but there is still a slight crunch. It does not crunch if I double clutch. Obviously I inflicted damage on the 3rd gear blocking ring driving and shifting with all the slop in the main shaft over the weekend. How I made it home at all is nothing short of a miracle. I mentally calculated about 4 different routes to make the 25 mile journey home Sunday and took the one that I knew would require the fewest 2nd-to-3rd gear shifts. I rounded a couple tight turns nearly on two wheels in 3rd gear to keep from having to shift and relied heavily on the OD where I could to compensate. Not sure how much longer I had before the OD completely came apart but I'm very thankful it didn't.

It's ironic as Oilly and I have another thread going about these OD snap rings here ( http://eastcoastwillys.proboards.com/thread/1693/overdrive-failure ) and now it rears its head on this forum under what started out as a completely different topic on an entirely different Jeep.

More testing and research is definitely needed on these snap rings (and/or a better overall solution) I'm just hoping for minimal destruction in the meantime.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 07:53:27 PM by Ryan_M »
Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi

Offline 1955CJ-5

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2360
  • Karma: +0/-1
  • It wasn't always green....
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2016, 08:47:53 PM »
That is a little scary...I suppose Herm uses the same snap rings....I have two of his OD's and both have been in and out several times during the initial installation circus...
1955 CJ-5, A friend for 58 years....1951 CJ-3A, a new addition. 1929 Model A Ford Closed Cab Pickup...

Offline Ryan_M

  • Flatfender Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Uncooperative 3rd gear
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2016, 05:37:13 AM »
Quote
That is a little scary...I suppose Herm uses the same snap rings....I have two of his OD's and both have been in and out several times during the initial installation circus...

The planetary gear assembly in Herm's OD's are supplied by Advance Adapters. My guess is whatever snap ring they use, Herm uses.  The last one I got from Herm was prior to the redesign so it was the older style.
Current:
'49 CJ3A
'51 CJ3A
'42 Willys MB-T
'47 Bantam T3-C
Previous:
'46 2A
'51 3A
'52 3A
'52 M38
'54 3B
East Coast Wi