Running hot

[SteveKfl]

Be careful with the fan relocation "closer to the radiator" and deeper into the shroud.  That can cause cavitation as there is less air "exit".  I've always heard that the back part of the fan blade should be just outside the shroud.
 
I agree with Rus.  Pinging is a clue.  I'm wondering now if the "new" water pump (You said "same HOT situation from the beginning") is not pushing sufficient water for "loads", but just enough with the help of the wind of "driving" to keep things cool, while the other two conditions expose the "trapped heat"???
 
Do you have a heater?  Turning it on adds an extra little radiator temporarily.  Also, a clear heater tube substitution could show "flow" visually.
 
Is there a "vacuum advance" on the distributor, and if so, is it working properly?  Just throwing questions out there, probably already answered.  I can't wait to hear what the "fix" is.

[rcsteuer]

Thanks again, SteveKfl and Rus.

Yes, pinging is definitely a symptom, but the root cause is the mystery.

Actually, Russ, it may be time to head down different rabbit holes, as the ones I've been down, turn up no rabbits.

It's been nearly 50 years since I did a CJ rebuild but seem to recall the temp climbing after shutdown.  I can rationalize that if the water is sitting in a hot block with no circulation, it will climb until the entire block starts cooling off.  I can also rationalize that once you shut an engine off, it should be at its max temp and should not continue to rise. Given my complete lack of knowledge on thermodynamics, I assume one of them is correct but beats the devil outta me which one it is. 

Could be the water pump might be the issue.  Haven't gone down that path yet, but not far from it.

No heater in it, Steve. It has a mechanical vacuum advance that appears to work. I have a mark on the front pulley that I use a ballpark reference and when I rev the engine with a timing light on it, I can see the mark advance.  And thanks for the heads-up on the spacer for the fan.  It's worth a try ato see what the effect is.  If that doesn't work, I'll tackle the water pump.

Appreciate the help.

[48willys]

I think the temp climbing after shutting down is reasonably normal. But then I still a have some issues with it running hot at times.
Not that it couldn’t be the water pump, but the impeller should be cast iron and there’s very little to go wrong. Most of the time the seal goes bad and it’s easier to replace the pump than rebuild.
There is a vendor advertising a pump with an improved impeller, I have no idea if it’s worth the extra money but that’s something that may be worth a look.

[SteveKfl]

Ok, some reading found a CJ5 (F-head same block) with a similar situation of uphill or over 40MPH overheating.  Three things came out of that conversation. 
!) is thermostat in upside down?  2) with no heater, are there BY-PASS hoses on pump to block, or from pump to rear side of block for better circulation at speed or uphill load?  3) is there a blown head gasket?
 
Result for that guy after "trying it all" ended up being "the radiator".  He replaced the radiator with a different used one and the problem went away.   Just some food-crumbs for thought.  Good Luck! 

[rcsteuer]

Thanks for the replies.

In trying to recall the thermostat orientation, I'm not sure it's possible to put it in upside down.  The spring and copper cylinder would hit the housing, I think.  In any event, the spring is facing the block, and I've drilled the bleeder hole to allow bypass of water to prevent overheating from an air pocket.

No bypass hoses from rear of block to water pump.

No sign of a blown head gasket: no sign of water out the tailpipe, no sign of foam around oil filler tube, no bubbles in radiator while running, compression test is consistent across all 4 cylinders.

When I had the radiator serviced, the shop boiled, and flow tested.  Much to my surprise, they stated it was in great shape - I'm sure it's been re-cored (maybe more than once over the past 75 years.

I've found a NOS bellows type thermostat and NOS waterpump.  Those are on the way.  If that doesn't work, a radiator may be in my future.

Aain, thanks for the feedback.  I'll post after I change out the parts and test drive.

[rcsteuer]

So, it's been a while, to say the least.  Here's where I am:

Replaced thermostat to new 160, replaced water pump, flushed radiator, tried various timing settings using vacuum, dwell, and rpm. Nothing worked in terms of getting rid of ping after engine heats to 200 going uphill.  All very disappointing.

However, i may have stumbled upon a solution.  Problem is, I don't know what the downside to doing what I'm doing is, if there is one. One of the ways the effects of eliminating lead was offset was by introducing octane in gas.  Given that, I set the timing back to what ran the best and filled the tank with 91 octane without ethanol.  Since doing so, I've not heard pinging even though the temps run at 200 at times.  I tried backing off to 87 octane with ethanol (I cannot buy 87 w/o octane) and the pinging returned, although not very often. The problem is that I don't know if the pinging was because the octane level was lower or because it contained ethanol.  Because I cannot buy ethanol free 87 octane, I have no way to prove out either scenario.

So, for now, it's ethanol free 94 octane.

One other very disturbing problem occurred while testing all of this.  At one point, the engine started skipping and coughing like there was no tomorrow.  With all the changes to timing, gas mixtures, octane levels, etc., I thought for sure I'd done permanent damage of some sort. I checked for spark at all cylinders, pulled plugs and checked compression - all looked OK.  As I was putting plugs back in, I noticed what you'll see in the attached image - one of the electrodes on the spark plug was completely gone. Disturbing as all hell! 

[SteveKfl]

Non-ethanol at 94 octane?  Ours here in south Florida is 90.
 
FYI... I lost a Champion spark plug core on my outboard once, and it blew the engine's piston into pieces which did even more damage.
 
You mention compression OK, but where did the piece of core end up?  Probably, the Willys low compression design, left extra room for "parts" above the piston, unlike my high-performance high-top pistons in my outboard with "no space".  RPM at occurrence probably also played a part.
 
Bottom line, that core is "somewhere", but where and what damage will it do later???  Good Luck!

[Rus Curtis]

Wow!  Yeah, that would affect performance.

On another thread octane/timing discussed.  I've done a quick search about timing and apparently there is many experimenting with timing adjustments.

https://cj3apage.com/Forum/index.php?topic=5940.msg43189#msg43189

Once your spark plugs are sorted, in addition to octane tests, this may be an idea. 

[SteveKfl]

PS... You may want to keep that core-less plug.  It can be used to turn a cylinder into an "air-pump" if needed for a "road-side emergency" to inflate a tire... with some hose added of course.

[rcsteuer]

SteveKfl & Rus- Thanks for the response.  No clue where the electrode ended up, but testing all 4 cyl for compression indicated with 5-7lbs.  Not burning any oil, etc., so assuming it ended up getting spit out past the exhaust valve, but who knows.  I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.

I might have the octane rating wrong but pretty sure it's 94.  The whole issue is around the effects of ethanol (has a higher-octane rating of around 109) and the point of combustion of 9x octane w/o ethanol vs. 87 w/octane. To be honest I do not know if one would be better than the other.  Since I have no markings, I don't know where i ended up in terms of timing before TDC.  All i do know is that the pinging is gone with the 9x octane with the timing set for max vacuum and correct dwell and rpm. It was a hit or miss operation for a while, but it's finally running with plenty of power, still hits 200 - 210 temps but no pings, so this is where it'll stay.

[scoutpilot]

May I clarify something? Octane is not a component of gasoline but is the numerical measure of the amount of compression a given volume fuel can withstand prior to ignition. Higher octane ratings indicate fuel that is less likely to pre-ignite when under pressure, which can cause engine damage.
Timing and mixture are key contributors to engine performance. Pinging under load indicates either/both incorrect timing and/or a mixture that is too lean.
Also, timing that is too far advanced and/or a too lean mixture will contribute to overheating.

[tow hook]

my f head is .060 over and has never over heated. i do use the auto lite 295 plugs as they go deeper into the combustion camber. and thanks f to scout pilot for helping my set the carb up over the phone. 

fyi, i just had my rad re cored  last summer with a newer style set up ( it's now 2 core ) due to the radiator  leaking and it runs even cooler then before. it wasn't cheap but looks great , and it's still old school