Starter Motor slides on shaft but won't engage

[GlynB]

Hi All

In the final stages of completing my restoration and went to start the engine today.  The starter gear moves up to the flywheel gears manually, using the starter foot pedal, but just spins without engaging on the flywheel gear. 

I know the flywheel has 129 teeth (I counted them last year) and the starter 9 teeth and there is only minimal wear on both.  Somehow the two aren't lining up properly - anyone any ideas?

[athawk11]

Hi Glyn,
Have you had the starter opened up?  It sort of sounds like you have a broken spring on the Bendix.

Tim

[GlynB]

Hi Tim

I've had the starter off (more times than I can remember) and, as I said, the arm on the top of the starter moves the starter gear along the shaft with no problem.  The difficulty appears to be that the starter gear sits alongside the flywheel OK it just doesn't sit close enough to the flywheel gear to mesh?

It's driving me nuts and I'm reluctant to import a new starter from Kaiser Willys or similar because shipping and import taxes will triple the cost - and it may not even solve the problem.

[Bob W]

What is the starter number? The starters for 129 teeth probably don't have an "arm".

[aboyandhisdog]

  Have you used this starter/flywheel combo before without problems?   I ask because the usual ring gear for a 3A is 124 teeth to the best of my knowledge.   And the MZ 4137 and 4162 starter motors both work with the 124T.  If you are using a starter set up for 124T with a 129T gear, it will never work right. 

Now assuming you have used this combo before there are two things I would try:  1) be sure you have screwed down the button on top of the starter as far as it will go which will allow the lever pushing the bendix to travel as far as it can possibly travel towards the ring gear.  If it still won't get the drive all the way engaged into the gear,  2) then you might even try grinding a bit on the drive lever so that it will travel even further before the power spins the drive.  Both of these measures helped me with this problem, however did not solve it completely.  I ended up putting in a new "gear reduction" starter which is key activated, and have not looked back - I love it and have had no issues at all anymore.

[GlynB]

Hi Tom

Thanks for your post.  The starter and flywheel ring gear were on the Jeep when it arrived from the US.  They seemed to work OK at first but over 6 months the problems got progressively worse (only engaging some of the time) until now when it won't engage at all. 

Looking at info on the internet I counted the teeth on the ring gear to check it was the correct one for a CJ3A - which I thought, at 129, it is?  I have been unable to find a part number on the starter.  It just says Autolite and just visible is a stamp saying rebuilt and the figures 9 4.

GPWs and MBs are more common over here and I think my next step is to visit my WW2 Jeep parts supplier (a mere 230 miles away) to get his opinion.  He stocks starters for MBs but I don't know whether they are compatible with the CJ3A ring gear?

[aboyandhisdog]

Glyn, your story is very similar to mine - worked well at first but slowly got bad.  Anyway...the 3A did have a 124T ring gear but I suppose it is possible that someone put a 129T on it but they would have also had to change out the starter.  Again, all possible. 

I'm not sure on this but I believe the MB ring gear was only 97T.  However, your WW2 guy may still be a good source for you on getting you back in the saddle with a rebuilt starter.  If you were to change the ring gear you will have to pull the engine. 

I meant to ask you if you are 12 volts or still 6 V?  If you are 12V, you may want to consider contacting this guy  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281762990816 to see if he has a starter for a 129T flywheel that will work for you.  Also, he may be willing to build you one of these motors in 6 volt if you need it.  He seems to be pretty accommodating and I see that he ships "worldwide".  It did take him 6 days to get my motor shipped, but other than that, it has been reliable and trouble free. 

I should add that I tried several new starter drives, had the motor professionally rebuilt, installed a new ring gear and nothing made any difference.  The adjustments on the button and lever as I previously described are the only things that helped.  It is still a mystery to me, as it worked for years before.  So, I'm not sure what the problem is with these starters when they get old.  All I do know is that the new starter is working well.

[GlynB]

Hi Tom

Many thanks not just for the advice but also the encouragement.  After 12 months working away in a cramped garage with a leaking roof it gets disheartening when you get this close to the finish.  I have reflected on your comments and will now 1. count the teeth on the ring gear again and 2. based on your comments I have found a race car supplier here in the UK who can supply a reduction gear starter for either a 124t or 129t ring gear for around �165 (or $250) plus postage.

I'll let you know how I get on!

[Austin]

I have had problems with my starter before too. A couple things you might try could be pulling it apart and cleaning it good with break cleaner to get all the grit and grime off. I know it is a dreaded thing to do but put a small amount of oil on it to see if it helps move any easier.  Also you might want to check the armature for drag marks. If you see scores on the armature, you might try replacing the brass bushings. The rear is a 4216 and I forget off the top of my head what the front bushing is. When testing, make sure you have a good power source with a good ground.

[Austin]

Does anyone have experience with the gear reduction starters offered by Kaiser Willy's? My starter/alternator guy offered to build me one. He said it is just a $60 toyota starter with a custom face plate and changed gear. I have began to use gear reduction starters in all my equipment. They crank very smoothly. I can't wait to have one for my 3a.

[aboyandhisdog]

I don't own the KW starter but I did speak with the ebay guy in the link I posted.  He calls his "remanufactured" only because he buys the cores new from Nippon-Denso and them he adds the necessary parts to set them up for any given application such as our L134's.  I would guess that KW is buying them from someone doing the same thing - or maybe they do it in-house, I don't know.  Theirs certainly cost a lot more.  I bought from the Ebay guy and so far so good, it works great!

[GlynB]

Hi Tom

FANTASTIC news!  Following your advice I rechecked the number of teeth on my flywheel - it was 124 as you suggested.  I then bought a brand new reduction gear starter from a supplier here in the UK  http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/alternators-starter-motors/starter-motor/willys/jeep-124-tooth-flywheel/wosp-lightweight-high-torque-starter-motor-denso-type-1-4kw-output.   It bolted straight in place of the old starter - and works perfectly!  I can't believe I struggled for over a year to try and troubleshoot the old starter when such an easy fix was available

[aboyandhisdog]

That IS great news, Glyn.  I had all of the same issues you did and spent a bunch (time and $) trying to make my old foot starter work right consistently.  Now all is right with the world!

So how is your 3A running?  Are you happy with it and is it great to drive?  Always nice to move from the "restoring" function to the "driving" function!