My Willys 3A and 3B Community
How To Join => Once You've Joined => Topic started by: DaveG on August 27, 2013, 08:06:57 PM
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Hey Guys,
I have been a Jeep nut since I was 2 years old and riding around with a family friend in his CJ6. I got pretty serious about CJ7s for many years and even got into rock crawling competition.
A couple weeks ago I picked up a 51 M38 and a 49 CJ3a. Gonna do a full restore on the M38. Not sure yet what I will do with the CJ3a.
Looking forward to getting to know you guys.
Dave
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Hello Dave, and Welcome! In what part of Colorful Colorado are you located? I'm northeast of Greeley a little ways, or 25 miles East of Fort Collins. BW
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� �Hello Dave, and Welcome! In what part of Colorful Colorado are you located?� BW
I live near Del Norte about 50 miles from New Mexico.
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Hi Dave.� Welcome.
I'm in Arvada, CO.�
Tell us more about the new flat fenders.� Did you find them locally?� Was it a package deal?� Condition?� Do they move under their own power?� Do you have some photos?� Do you know any of the history?
Again, welcome to the 3A. 8-)
Tim
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Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, they were a package deal. I found these about 10 miles from home out behind a barn. They were inherited and had sat there for 32 years. The both ran when parked but I have not tried them yet. Having been in our fairly dry climate they really have very little rust. The 3a does have some below the door on the tub. On the M38 the windshield frame is pretty rough. Really good candidates though.
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� �Hello Dave, and Welcome! In what part of Colorful Colorado are you located?� BW
I live near Del Norte about 50 miles from New Mexico.
Boy, we couldn't be much further apart and still be in the same state, could we?
Both jeeps look like likely candidates to me! Nice find! BW
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Wow. Great photos.� The M38 looks real nice.� The 3A looks to be a mixture of a number of Willys products.
-2A, or possible MB/GPW frame.
-Early 2A grille or posssible modified M38 grill
-M38 windshield
-MB or GPW tub
-MB or GPW seat frames
In fact, I'm not seeing much 3A there at all.� It's still a beauty though. Can you post a bunch more photos?
Back side, dash area, rear wheel house, engine compartment, and maybe some shots of the underside?� On the frame, is there a flat steel plate on one of the rear cross members?� (between the frame and the bottom of the tub in the cargo area)� � The frame support crossing under the radiator...is it square or tubular?
Thanks,
Tim
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Yeh Bruce, pretty much opposite ends of the state.
Tim, I don't doubt you. My knowledge about these years is extremely limited. Here is the number on the frame...
25407-02-278
014-N6502
I have not found any other numbers yet.
The frame support under the radiator is tubular. I did not see a plate on a rear crossmember but did not crawl under it. The seats appear to be correct for the tub as everything matches perfectly with the fuel tank.
I was told that the only difference between the 3a and M38 windshield frames was a couple brackets and slightly different wiper motors. Was that incorrect?
Not trying to be argumentative, really. I do want to learn more about these. Here are some more pics. Hopefully they will help.
Thanks,
Dave
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The 3A looks to be a mixture of a number of Willys products.
-2A, or possible MB/GPW frame.
-Early 2A grille or posssible modified M38 grill
-M38 windshield
-MB or GPW tub
-MB or GPW seat frames
Good eyes Tim. I knew a bunch of stuff wasn't 3A but you added some explanation. I love these threads.
And DaveG, great find and I'm looking forward to seeing your progress. Nothing gets one dreaming like a couple Willys carcasses rescued from a scenic field....keep the pics coming.
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Dave,
You have a very exciting find.� That is a WWII vintage MB that looks to be in pretty good condition.
The grill is early 2A.
The windshield is an M38.
Everything else I am seeing is MB.� The engine head is military or very early 2A. That may mean the whole engine is a military chain drive, but we won't know that for sure until you uncover the casting numbers on the block.
On the windshield, the easy way to tell the difference between a 3A and an M38...
M38:� �The vent opening in the center just below the glass is bolted shut with the 2 brackets crossing vertically over the outside face.
3A:� �The same vent is hinged with a handle on the inside.� It can be opened for some fresh air.
As you mentioned, the wiper motors are different.
All said, you have two very, very nice Willys.� Both are worthy of restoration.� Congratulations!! 8-)
Tim
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Very Nice! The "3A" looked like a very nice find, now it appears to be an MB, it's even nicer! Frame tag (inside left frame rail just behind front bumper) looks very good, should tell us a lot. You didn't find the glove box door laying around there somewhere, did you?
The M38 appears to be a very nice find, too.
Bring 'em over to Buena Vista next month and let us look 'em over! :D BW
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Wow, tht goes to prove they are still out there waiting for us to find them.. From what I can tell you have a MB with a M38 windshield (bolted vent door) as well as a M38 grille. ( I can see where the M 38 headlight guards were) Chances are this was all done a long time ago. Hood and fenders are MB, you can see the headlight brackets and voltage regulator brackets in your pictures. You can also see the Frame ID tag on the inside of the left front frame rail behind the bumper. That is the ID number to use in registering that jeep.
Drivers seat is original MB, has the opening for the large mouth gas tank underseat. Passenger seat may be either M38 or CJ, has a taller back to it.
While no glove box door is there you have the plate on the left front frame rail and can get a pepro made up that will look original. You may have to estimate the DOD (date of delivery)
PLEASE.....do your research on the correct parts, and markings before you dig in. Careful sanding or use of mild strippers can often reveal the original hood numbers and as you seem to have your original hood it would be well worth trying to find it. Don't toss anything, and take plenty of pictures. You probably know about the g 503.com website and steel soldiers and willysmjeeps sites.
The M38 is no slouch either...You hit the mother lode there.. Hopefully nature was kind to the internals.
Congratulations and enjoy!!
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Looking at the engine I am not sure what that is. I do not see the classic oval pad on the right side, instead I see a raised round circle. in the same location. If there is no side oval pad for the serial number, perhaps it has a serial number stamped in the flat area behind that front heater hose in the pics.
You seem to have an original air filter setup, but no oil filter mounted on the head, or fuel filter on the right firewall. (Very late MB's did not have a firewall mounted fuel filter IIRC. )
From what I see in your pics it is hard to tell if you still have the t-84 or if your tranny has been replaced by the T 90. I think I see the shift tower has the shift rails in it like the t-90 but my eyes might be playing tricks on me, as I see no sign of any floor modifications to accommodate a t-90.
These threads are fun! Every time you think you have the jeep figured out you see something else to talk about.
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The plate mentioned on the frame crossmember....
is a machine gun mounting plate...and if you look at the rear floor right where it comes up between the front seats you will notice an area in the front floor seam that has a rounded protrusion tha ta ten inch or so circle would match. If you complete the circle on the floor directly below it you will find a crossmember with a bracket on it that is welded to the top of the crossmember directly under the floor. That is where a machine gun mount similar to what you might have seen in Rat Patrol reruns would bolt to the floor. That would verify a WWII frame, as would the front bellcrank mount being on the front axle instead of the bottom of the radiator crossmember.
You do have the full floater rear axle, another WWII feature.
Top bows appear to be aftermarket but are similar to the WWII ones , just mounted to the tub differently.
I gotta go wipe the drool off my keyboard now. :)
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Hey Guys,
That is some really cool info!! Got me all excited now. I will get out there later today and see what other info I can get off it. Maybe get that stereo off the dash and get a look at the id plates underneath it.
Thanks for educating me and keep it coming.
Dave
BTW- What is a Buena Vista next month?
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Welcome Dave and thanks for the pictures, the first picture is now my desk top back ground.....
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Welcome Dave and thanks for the pictures, the first picture is now my desk top back ground.....
Thanks for the welcome. I guess that pic does kinda tell us that they are still out there.
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Hi Dave,
Bruce mentioned Buena Vista, Colorado.� This is in reference to a yearly gathering of Willys Jeeps called 'The Fall Colors Tour.� �Many folks from points as far away as South Carolina and Virginia make the trek out to Colorado for a week worth of trail rides and all around Willys fun.� Having your two Willys there, running or not, would be very exciting for the other 20 to 30 participants.� Some of the greatest Willys minds are all gathered together.� You would learn so much that your brain may overload.�
Here is a link you can read through that will give you an idea of what to expect...
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/cffc-fall-color-tours-2013_topic27464.html
If you can't make it this year, put it in your bucket list for future years.� You won't be sorry.
Tim ;)
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Man that really does look like my kinda thing! If I am still in the area I will try to make it. Often I have to be away at work by then.
Here are a couple more pics. Is the hole in the bumper for a hand crank?
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Just had one of those exciting moments. I was checking for numbers in the engine compartment and decided to try and turn the engine. Just grabbing the fan I was able to turn it even though it had not moved in over 32 years.
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T-90 Gearbox.
It turns over? Cool!
Stock MB did use a handcrank. They are rare but you can get repop ones.
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Careful--some repro tubs could confuse things. My Jeep had a repro tub from the 80's on it when I got it. It was in far worse condition than what's in these pictures, so age doesn't always correlate with condition. It had a lot of MB/GPW features to it, though it was mounted on a 3A frame. (And had a 2A engine.)
-Paul
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Paul,
I'm pretty sure that's an original MB tub.� There are features on this tub that were not duplicated on early reproduction tubs.� Early repos did not have the notch in the top center of the dash where the cowl folds over the dash.� The emergency brake hole in the dash also looks right. On early repro tubs the brake handle mount and hole for the handle were all jacked up.�
I may be wrong, but there are a number of additional small details that scream original MB.
Tim
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I just noticed this thread. Congrats on the new editions! Looks like you have two gems in the ruff.
Have you made any changes in your decision on what your going to do with the MB?
I am on the tail end of restoring my M38 and love it as will you with yours.
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Have you made any changes in your decision on what your going to do with the MB?
Thanks Brett.
I don't know for sure. If I had any sense at all I would sell the MB and concentrate on the M38. Hard for me to let any Jeep go though. If I had unlimited funds and time I would definitely restore them both but I don't have either.
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Tim, You know more about M38s than I do. (Much more!) I looked back at an earlier thread where I had posted a picture of my tub (removed from the Jeep), and someone else posted that it was an M38. You corrected him, saying it was a repro.
I was just pointing out that it's easy for those of us with only passing familiarity of the designs to be mistaken, as there can be a variety of different repro designs out there from decades past, that may look more or less like various different Flatties.
The extent of my knowledge is much more limited--I looked at the first pictures in this thread and noticed only that the ones labelled CJ3A didn't have the Willys stamp on them, and (I think) that means that it wasn't an original CJ3A tub. But whether it's a repro or an M38 (or GPW/MB) is beyond my level of knowledge.
BTW--what's the difference between a CJ3A grille and a CJ2A grille? (Looking at early comments in this thread.) I've got two grilles (both of which I assume are repros) and I don't know what they most resemble. They're both in much better shape than my tub was, though, and can certainly be used again without much more than a coat of paint.
-Paul
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Hi Paul.
(I think we just highjacked Dave's post :) ;D Hopefully he doesn't mind.)
I know just enough about grilles to be completely wrong.� An early 2A is easy to spot.� Inset park light with the headlight googling out of the grille.� (vs MB where the headlights are inset)
I can't tell a difference between a late 2A and an early 3A.� �They are both set up to accept a bottom mount radiator. If there are any differences, Bob W may be able to help us out with them.
The late 3A grille changed on the inside to accept the side mount style radiators.� Looks the same on the outside.
I have no idea how to spot a repro.� Again, just enough knowledge to be completely wrong. :-[
Tim
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Hi Paul.
(I think we just highjacked Dave's post :) ;D Hopefully he doesn't mind.)
Not in the least. I am learning all the time.
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The plate mentioned on the frame crossmember....
is a machine gun mounting plate...and if you look at the rear floor right where it comes up between the front seats you will notice an area in the front floor seam that has a rounded protrusion tha ta ten inch or so circle would match.� If you complete the circle on the floor directly below it you will find a crossmember with a bracket on it that is welded to the top of the crossmember directly under the floor. That is where a machine gun mount similar to what you might have seen in Rat Patrol reruns would bolt to the floor. That would verify a WWII frame, as would the front bellcrank mount being on the front axle instead of the bottom of the radiator crossmember. :)
I got a better look under the Jeep today and it does have the machine gun mount plate. ;D
Did a little sanding on the hood but have not had any luck finding numbers. Went to metal in a few places without ever seeing any white or light blue. I have heard of using a propane torch to burn layers off. Opinions? Advice?
Thanks,
Dave
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Couple more pics.
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Well my trusty wire brush found the numbers on the engine. They are near the bottom on the right hand side. They are...
1-26 641087-L-W10 A N R-N2
Do these numbers mean anything to anyone?
Thanks,
Dave
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A great list of block casting information is at http://ww2jeeps.com/htm/Lheadmain.htm
-Paul
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Thanks Paul. Found some good info there. The numbers on the block and head indicate that it was a transitional engine that comes up 2a.
I also found the tag on the inside of the left front frame rail. It shows number 449021.
Additionally on the body bolster on the firewall near the steering column there is a stamped number. 247830 Any chance that was the hood number?
Thanks,
Dave
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OK, been doing more research. Near as I can tell the frame number was made in 1945. If that is the case, the engine in it could be original as it shows being a transitional casting.
Any different opinions or anybody want to tell me what I am looking at wrong? ;)
Thanks,
Dave
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That is the machine gun plate we were looking for!� excellent.� The bellcrank is also MB.� The number on the support gusset is an ACM #.� American Central Manufacturing made the tubs/sheet metal parts for Willys up until 3A production.� I'm not super familiar with ACM Willys # information for dating the Willys.� On WWII tubs, I believe Type 1 tubs had very sharp angle looking gusset supports.� Type 2 tubs are late war. The gusset supports on Type 2 are more rounded like a 2A and 3A.
Engine history is easiest to discover by knowing the block serial #.� This is a stamped number on the engine boss.� The engine boss with serial # can be found in one of two places...
--Just below the water pump.� There is a flat spot on the engine block.
OR
--Just behind where the original oil filter is mounted.� There is usually an oval shaped flat spot on the block.
Be careful when removing rust or paint from these bosses.� The stamping can be very faint if the block has been re-surfaced.� Don't GRIND away.� Use a combo of soft wire brushes, fluids, 220, 320 sand paper, etc..�
This is the best way to date the block.� The #s may not be there anymore...for a number of reasons.� If they are gone, there is almost no way to verify that the engine block is original to this Willys.
Your head is surely a MB, GPW, or VEC 2A head.� This makes me hopeful the engine is also WWII, but we won't be able to tell from the engine castings you have uncovered.� Find those serial #s!! ;)
I don't want you to go away, but FBill has pointed out the other military sites that can be very helpful while doing your research.� Go there, but always come back to us here at the 3A.� We are all Willys enthusiasts.� We like all things flat fender.� We also happen to be the most friendly Willys forum on the net!! ;)
Tim