My Willys 3A and 3B Community
Your Projects => Your CJ-3A Project => Topic started by: trijjicon on November 01, 2023, 08:21:05 AM
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I've posted this problem here before. My mechanic and I thought we had it fixed and we did for the most part. It would still shut off but couldn't be re-cranked easily. He fixed it so it would re-start easy. But yesterday while driving it around town in stop and go traffic, it shut off when averaging 40mph (ie. while moving)...right dead in the road...8 times. I chatted with my mechanic and my thinking was the fuel is vaporizing b4 it gets to the engine. It gets really hot on the floorboards down the drive-train. But I've never had the radiator boil-over. As long as I could maintain gas pedal, I could keep it running. Even stopped at red lights, I have to continue to shift to neutral and push the gas pedal to keep it running. Part of my mechanic's last work involved scoping the gas tank out, purging the fuel lines, changing to a higher pressure fuel pump, and changing out the fuel filter. There were no contaminants in the fuel tank. The choke feature is not attached...it wasn't when I purchased the Jeep. Some1 jerry-rigged a small piece of metal that holds the throttle open abit...assuming this was done to help it keep running. He wants to re-connect that throttle, take a closer look at that small piece of metal and put on a new carburetor. I'm to check my radiator level b4 bringing it to him. Any feedback from u guys would certainly be most appreciated. It's just too dangerous to be driving in traffic with this going on. Thnx
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Some photos of the engine bay would really help us.
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I have more photos if needed. I tried twice to send all 10 but size was too big first time. Second try after re-sizing, thre was a server error and to contact the administrator. Let me know and I'll post the other photos. thnx
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Three things stand out for me. I see a ground wire running to the block. Where is the other end? Electric fuel pump or pressure regulator on the fender? How old are the rubber fuel lines? I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of single-clamp setups, especially if they're securing rubber to straight-cut metal.
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Maybe it's just me, but the 3rd photo showing the hose barb fitting screwed into the banjo fitting on the carb ---> is that barb fitting NPT threaded and the banjo isn't?
Looks like a Solex carb. Could be mistaken, but don't they take less fuel pressure than Carter?
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I am not a mechanic Ron, so sorry I can't answer ur questions. I sent Scout an e-mail and asked him to respond.. but I c he hasn't done that yet. I also have not heard from my mechanic. If u guys want/need more photos, tell what u need to c. I'd like this fixed if any1 is offering? Provided distance, expenses r doable. Thnx
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I did respond. Here. On this site. 11/02/2023.
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To Scout... I meant respond to Ron D's questions about the barb fitting and the Solex and Carter carbs being different??
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Yes. It is a Solex carb. Yes. the Solex requires no more than 1.5 psi fuel pressure. I am curious as well about the plumbing at the Banjo Bolt. Coarse thread does not mix well with fine thread and will probably leak air into the fuel flow and drop the pressure. I am also curious as to the function of the red device on the fender.
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As am I curious also. Thnx Scout for answering Ron questions. I'm just looking for a solution. What needs to be done here? Just tell me what I need to do to fix this.
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Hi Trij,
My impression (could be wrong) is that you aren't going to do the work to fix it yourself and instead will rely on your mechanic to do the work?
Any competent mechanic (buying or supplied with correct quality parts) should be able fix what appears to be several related problems with your fuel delivery system.
Replacing fuel fittings and hoses and clamps that fit together properly is fundamentally simple mechanic stuff, and fairly quick and inexpensive to accomplish.
He should also be able to test fuel pressure to make sure the Solex gets the correct fuel pressure.
Just my 2 cents.
Good luck!
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I'm no mechanic and don't know how. I know some stuff but not enough to figure this one out. Ur 2 cents is certainly worth more to me as it gives me hope. Many mechanics have worked on this Jeep. Just taking my money I guess. But this last one actually fixed a bunch of stuff the others said couldn't be fixed. And his prices were very reasonable. He's a good man. I hate to even think I'm gonna have to sell it only to find out later...it just needed alil here and alil there. Runs great. (be just my luck). And u r right, it should've been fixed long time ago.
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I was able to speak with my mechanic last night. He had seen the posts but couldn't respond as he is not a member. He doesn't recall where the other end of that ground wire went. He wants to c the Jeep again and fix it. That red unit on the fender is ( and I think that is what he said) the fuel pump. The original fuel pump on the engine block was sealed off (non-functional). He will change the fuel line to metal but he did replace the old fuel lines at some point when he was working on it. He didn't think fuel pressure was an issue. He thought also that with the lil use I get out of the Jeep, using 89 Octane won't work if the Jeep sits up. I'm to go with 95 Octane non-ethanol. That is not sold at the Enmarks I use. 92 is all we get, so I'll have to shop around. He suspects an air leak and engine running hot enough to vaporize the fuel b4 it gets to the engine. He'll install an engine temp gauge to b sure it's not running too hot. Will b next weekend b4 he is free-up to work on it.
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I feel your frustrations... and I think I just felt a shiver from Scott Pilot and others from some of the content recently posted. Too many "guess items" instead of basic tracking for "problems"... IMO.
This site has already "taught us members" from "quality-input experienced-mechanics" (I'm not one of them) that fuel pressure and proper timing and air/fuel mixture are basic starting points. "Higher Octane" use as been opined on before as "not a FIX", and may even "create other problems" for the "1933 technology engine". The non-alcohol fuel has been recommended for "low use" vehicles, but not at 95 octane if avoidable. Here in Florida, we have no-alcohol "Rec gas" or "RV gas" at 89/90, still high according to the "experts".
So here's a quote from your first post here... "Part of my mechanic's last work involved scoping the gas tank out, purging the fuel lines, changing to a higher pressure fuel pump, and changing out the fuel filter." Note the statement "higher pressure fuel pump", while elsewhere it has been indicated that your Solex carb "requires LESS PRESSURE at approximately 1.5 PSI" vs factory 2-3 PSI with a Carter set up. I don't see a "pressure regulator" or return fuel line for any "adjustments" potential. The electric fuel pump model number should have "specs" to see what "expected output flow and PSI should be" to 'guess' if it is part of the problem "producing too much". Otherwise, I'd invest in an inline fuel pressure gauge before the card, to SEE what you actually are pumping into the carb. You may also want to invest into a "stock-type mechanical fuel pump" vs the electric pump. That stock type system has been in use successfully for almost 90 years since the L-Head was introduced and used in the 1933 Willys cars. Most seem to run fine with the system in place and with proper adjustments.
If it ain't "broke", don't try to "fix it". You have also said in your posts..."Overheating" is not an issue", but added "the floor gets hot". Is the muffler and/or tailpipe too close to the fuel line when "replaced" or "fuel lines were purged"?
Maybe someone will support or refute my comments from "their experience" and/or "expertise", but I hate to see you chasing "guesses". That gets expensive!!! Good Luck!
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Now that we know your mechanic is reading these posts.......
X2 on everything Steve said.
The L134 was designed to run perfectly on 68 octane. Can't buy it that low nowadays.
While ethanol-free gas is always best, 89 octane from the pump today is more than sufficient for it to run well.
Maybe it's just me, but some of the things your mechanic told you (for instance, about octane and fuel pressure) make me wonder......
And to be fair, the Solex is an unusual carburetor, even on a jeep (some call it "goofy").
Your mechanic would be well-advised to "google it" and study up on it.
If I recall correctly, one of it's odd-ball features is that you must not touch the throttle when starting it. Use the (goofy operating) choke only.
It was the first thing I ditched on mine, in favor of an original Carter.
If it helps, here's some Solex reading material for you:
https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/solex-carburetor-issues-on-46_topic42224.html
https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=17687
Good luck!
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Electric fuel pumps PUSH the fuel they do a terrible job of SUCKING the fuel. That pump should be located as close to the bottom of the tank as possible NOT up on the inner fender. You should also have it wired with a Oil Pressure safety switch to shut it off in case of a roll over or other wreck.
Holley has an excellent wiring diagram for this I will post it here so as to make sure your mechanic sees it.
https://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/500/510/510-12-801-1.pdf bottom of the sheet of instructions.
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If it turns out you need a fuel pressure regulator, I have a Holley 12-804 for sale, $15 plus postage.
I originally bought it for the Solex (Holley 12-804 does 1-4psi) and mounted it but never put fuel in it because shortly afterwards I got rid of the Solex.
Still in original box.
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FYI... A quick "image search of inline electric fuel pumps revealed that look-alike pumps as yours pictured, indicate "4-7 PSI 34gal/hr" (and some even higher up to 10PSI). That may be a good indicator of "too much" fuel-flow and PSI "designed-capability" to be consumed at low speed/volume requirements. That could also explain the "extra throttle rigging" to allow more air??? Maybe not.
I did find this pump listed ... https://www.ebay.com/itm/42S-Low-Pressure-2-3-5PSI-Universal-Micro-Electric-Fuel-Pump-Polymer-Gasoline-/265814190393 ... but even that one exceeds/doubles the Solex carb "needs" as stated to be at just "1 PSI". Could you be drowning the poor thing at low speeds, and also overheating the pump that can not get to produce the "designed flow" (aka cooling) from "blockage", therefore heating the over-pressured fuel as well??? The pump may be overheated and quits until "cooled off".
How ironic, my other post was against "guessing", and here I am "guessing like crazy". Sorry, but I do feel like your electric pump is not your "best situation" from your descriptions of "symptoms". I did see the Holley fuel regulator of Ron's offering verifying the "1-4 PSI" capability, but you may also need a "fuel pressure gauge", again hard to find one down to "1 PSI indicated", to regulate the pressure correctly and accurately.
I hope the above info helps target "next steps" for you to get back "on the road again" happily and reliably. Good Luck, and please keep us posted of your adventure.
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The use of 90-octane non-ethanol is highly recommended. An adjustment to the timing, using an analog vacuum gauge and an analog dwell/tachometer to help make this adjustment is also highly recommended. Do you want a "Sweet Spot" operation? That's what you need. Also. IMLTHO. Dump the Solex and electric fuel pump/pressure regulator and set up with an original AC single action pump (NOT A REPRO!) and an original Carter WO 636SA carb. If you can't afford it now then save you nickels and dimes, along with some dollars.
“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.â€
― Benjamin Franklin
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To b fair with the mechanic I am using now, he hasn't been the only one working on this jeep. There have been many others. He has "undone" several things the others tried. That higher pressure fuel pump in use now was not his idea, that was another mechanic. But I can c the other mechanic's reasoning. If it's not getting enough fuel then u need more pressure. In this case, it seems not to be the case. I try to b fair in my judgements of others.
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I do not believe anyone here is trying to denigrate either you or your friend, the mechanic. For the most part, we have all encountered something with these old Jeeps that left us scratching our heads and wondering "Where do I go from here?" The important aspect here is that we who have responded positively are trying to help both of you over this roadblock. With no malice intended, do you and/or he have a maintenance and/or parts manual to help diagnose this issue? My rule number one? Open the book before I open the wallet. Also, I'm sure many of us have iPhones and I, for one, am always ready to Facetime, thereby making a house call. An extra set of eyes is almost always better. And just remember, I'm on Eastern Time.
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Couple of corrections, I didn't specify an octane just that it should be non ethanol. The fuel pump I installed was replaced by another shop so I don't have the specs but I can check psi when it comes back. I'm going to move the pump closer to the tank and run new fuel lines, correct the fittings and install a mechanical temp gauge.
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Mr Orander, since you signed in as a "guest", I'm thinking you might be the "mechanic". First of all, thanks on behalf of Willys Jeep owners that you are even willing to work on non-computerized vehicles, a scarce commodity these days. Second, as Mr Pilot said, no one means anything negative to anyone, we're just sharing experiences in seeking solutions AND "learning from others from that".
Suggestion... if you are planning on "replacing the fuel lines" and "relocating the pump and changing fittings", have you and the owner considered retaining the existing line to be used as a "return line" from a "pressure regulator"? It seems from shared comments that Solex carbs are "touchy" about wanting low pressure. Seems like an opportunity to utilize the lines there and approach that potential issue. Have "temperatures" at the pump (and carb) been monitored to see if it might be a "source of the heated fuel" potential issue?
These are just suggestions of how "I" would approach the issue if this situation were mine. This site's "sharing of knowledge and experiences" has saved me lots of time and expenses over the years. I am grateful to "all" who participate. It has been very helpful. Good Luck, and please keep us posted of trials and tribulations. Thanks.
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Because he's not using the block-mounted mechanical fuel pump and its typical metal line to the carb that sometimes gets run too near the manifold, I'd say that "heated fuel" (a.k.a. "vapor lock") is probably not the problem.
In other words, I wouldn't be looking for vapor lock until after new lines and fittings have been installed and the pump has been relocated and pressure has been verified.
The history of his Solex and whether or not it's clean and functioning correctly should also be studied.
And if that Solex banjo fitting was ruined by mating it to the wrong pipe thread fitting, good luck finding a new one.
I agree the best solution is changing back to the correct mechanical pump and Carter carb ---- and could probably be done for a couple three hundred bucks.
I bet ScoutPilot could give you a deal on both --- guaranteed to run perfectly!
Good luck!
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Yes, Todd is the mechanic I use now. He has alrdy worked some miracles out of this Jeep. I am confident that somewhere in all these posts, he will find the solution. He is not old-school...his personal jeeps r all modern versions. He is traditional however, in thought and holds dear to the ways things "used" to b. Indeed, he is a rare find. I truly appreciate the support all of u r offering. That too is rare today. Thanks and may the Seasons b kind to all of u.
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@ Scout Pilot... Hello Scout: I PM'ed u a couple days ago but couldn't confirm it was actually sent. Just in case, I'll post the question here. Ron D states above u might have the correct mechanical pump and a Carter carb. If so, I'd like to get those from u??
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This is an L134 flathead 4, correct?
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Yes it is.
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Okay. I can have a WO 636SA and an AC 572 pump in about two days. Is that good enough?
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Haven't heard back from Todd. I don't know if those will work or not.
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Those two are OEM.
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Could u privately tell me how much u asking for those parts? trijjicon@frontier.com