My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Engine compartment => Topic started by: tow hook on June 12, 2023, 11:43:25 AM
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this past weekend the wife and i addended the bantam jeep festival in butler pa. fri am we did the state park aide. very nice ride, lots of back roads, great stops, and well ran.
as we were driving the wife smelled gas. at 2 of the stops i looked, but i could not find any leaks ( i checked the tank and rubber fuel lines, fuel pump, and fittings ) also the number 1 plug wire came off the dist, not once but twice. i was able to get that remedied, and was able to finish the ride. the oil smells like gas, that oil was drained out last night. ( i'm aware of how bad that can affect the seals in the engine ) on sunday after noon, i realized the screws top of the carb was a tad loose. ( dust had gathered were the gasket had weeped ) so those were tightened and cleaned up . i still have a gas smell on the pass side when the engine is running. the small gave the wife a bad head ache, and washed her out fit separate due to gas smell. so any ice cream rides are out for a while :(
it may be related ? but it' doesn't start as fast as it had in the past. it's like i'm over choking, or under choking it??? perhaps a i have a carb issue ?
i'm new to the whole maintenance / up keep thing, this is my second summer driving it. so i'm up for any advice
thanks
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Does the carb need the choke applied to idle?
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Does the carb need the choke applied to idle?
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no, it does seem a tad more prone to stall then before.
i just cleaned the pcv valve. i will change the oil in the oil bath filter, and get a new fuel filter. did some on line trouble shooting
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You should also pull your spark plugs and...Scratch that. It sounds like you need to perform thorough annual maintenance. That includes a full tune-up using a vacuum gauge.
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.... the oil smells like gas, that oil was drained out last night. ...
That's not normal. I can only think of one way for gas to get into your oil: Failed fuel pump diaphragm.
To verify, you'll go through gas faster, i.e. much worse gas mileage. And your oil level will increase and along with the smell, behave as if it's much thinner than before - almost like water (or gas). How did it look coming out of the drain plug (real thin or normal?) Did it still smell like gas? More volume than normal?
You also mention that it doesn't start as fast. Maybe I'm fixating but again, I'm wondering if this could be a secondary symptom of the fuel pump. Since you mentioned you have a fuel filter, is it before or after the pump?
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You should also pull your spark plugs and...Scratch that. It sounds like you need to perform thorough annual maintenance. That includes a full tune-up using a vacuum gauge.
i did pull the plugs they looked nice, and the color was even across all 4 plugs. i did pull the plug wire that came of the dist, was black and sooty so that is now cleaned. the tune up is in the works. i do have a vacuum gauge. were will i be using it ?
thanks for all the help
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.... the oil smells like gas, that oil was drained out last night. ...
That's not normal. I can only think of one way for gas to get into your oil: Failed fuel pump diaphragm.
To verify, you'll go through gas faster, i.e. much worse gas mileage. And your oil level will increase and along with the smell, behave as if it's much thinner than before - almost like water (or gas). How did it look coming out of the drain plug (real thin or normal?) Did it still smell like gas? More volume than normal?
You also mention that it doesn't start as fast. Maybe I'm fixating but again, I'm wondering if this could be a secondary symptom of the fuel pump. Since you mentioned you have a fuel filter, is it before or after the pump?
if i ran the engine with out spark for 3 miles or how ever long that wire was off the dist. that gas would have gone past the rings ?
the gas smell was in the oil for sure, it wasn't a very heavy gas smell. the oil was a tad low on the stick before i drained it.( it was full thurs before i loaded it up for bantam) it did drain out of the plastic drain pan pretty easy. some times you get a thick film on the bottom of the drain pan. this didn't have that. i believe 30w is what i have it at that time, i went with the shell rotella oil this time
i have my inline filter before the pump. well at the spring show in ohio i saw a glass bowl set up ( with a red base ) it had a ceramic filter. that's on the short list to purchased ( well at the willys picnic a saw another 3b with that set up, and now i know how i want to mount it :) )
how would i test the fuel pump ? i assume put it on the intake side of the pump... i do have a small / hand held round vacuum gauge.
thanks for the all the info
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You should also pull your spark plugs and...Scratch that. It sounds like you need to perform thorough annual maintenance. That includes a full tune-up using a vacuum gauge.
i did pull the plugs they looked nice, and the color was even across all 4 plugs. i did pull the plug wire that came of the dist, was black and sooty so that is now cleaned. the tune up is in the works. i do have a vacuum gauge. were will i be using it ?
thanks for all the help
https://oldjeepcarbs.com/thread/326/timing-motor-light (https://oldjeepcarbs.com/thread/326/timing-motor-light)
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oil changed, new fuel filter. sanded the plugs. gave it a crank. it has a very ruff idle, and shut off twice. going to your link now.
thanks
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i couldn't find my log in for your site, but i did find this, i have my gauge plugged in ready for my asst. at lunch thursday
For the F-head, use the PCV port in the intake manifold. You can run the PCV into a "T" fitting with a barbed nipple on the other side. Place a rubber cap over the nipple when not tuning the motor.
DO NOT use the threaded vacuum port in the throttle body as you want to measure the flow vacuum post-throttle plate.
A good well-maintained and properly timed motor should draw between 15 and 21 inches of mercury on the gauge at sea level. And remember this fact, for every 1000 ft of altitude above sea level you'll lose one inch of vacuum.
i'm at 2000 feet of altitude. so i should be in that 15-21 plus or minus 2. it is ok if it runs with the choke on for this test?
i shoulda had you do all this at the reunion in ohio 3 weeks ago, but it was ok then.........
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i made my adapter, and the gauge read 15 pounds "late timing" i had to run it with on choke just to get it to idle....... So i need to move my dist ? so it reads closer to 18 psi ? and lock it down.
i have 150 miles on the whole jeep scene last summer is this common ? and ran great till last week..
thanks again for your help
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Follow the procedure in the video. Then report back.
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Follow the procedure in the video. Then report back.
thanks, will do
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Please accept a minor correction. Vacuum is measured in inches of mercury, or "water column". If your vacuum gauge says late timing, I can only assume you have it set at 5º BTDC which is late considering the higher octane fuel than the book was written for.
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Please accept a minor correction. Vacuum is measured in inches of mercury, or "water column". If your vacuum gauge says late timing, I can only assume you have it set at 5º BTDC which is late considering the higher octane fuel than the book was written for.
i checked, the gauge, it said mercury gauge. ( it does fuel as well ) it's around 4" inches in dia. how ever i do not know what's intended perpose was ?? it was given to me. and i have not done any other timing from when it was put together. i used 87 octane fuel. hope that helps
i pulled my dist. cap, and adjusted the points to .020 ( that's were the points make contact, no were the rotor spins ) i let the engine warm up, and get off choke. i adjusted the dist. clock wise to advance the timing. the best i got was solid 16.5 -17. other wise the gauge was swung crazy back and forth if i went to far with the dist. i have a carter yf carb. the idle screw should point right to the oil bath air filter. i adjusted that out with no rise in rpm :( . i adjusted in almost the whole way before the engine shut off. so i restarted
vacuum gauge didn't get any better then 16 inches :( 16 seems a bit low. was hoping for better, but thats my luck
so whats the next step. should i rent a timing light to know my rpms due to my lack of a dwell meter ?
thanks for the help, i'm very new to all this
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Once you have reached the highest vacuum reading with the vacuum gauge you need to turn it back so the motor drops one hundred RPM. Lock the distributor down. Watch the vacuum gauge as you adjust the steel idle stop screw in the throttle lever to again reach the highest vacuum reading. Then adjust the mixture screw for 650-700 idle RPM.
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Are these in the correct sequence? Idle screw for vacuum changes? Maybe that's what "I" do wrong.
Watch the vacuum gauge as you adjust the steel idle stop screw in the throttle lever to again reach the highest vacuum reading. Then adjust the mixture screw for 650-700 idle RPM.
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That is correct.
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Well, thanks for setting me straight. I'm going to copy the directions and add them to my workbook for references. I have always set the idle speed first and then the mixture screws for max vacuum. I hope to never be too old to learn from "experienced masters". Thanks!
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The idle stop screw controls the airflow through the carb. The mixture screw controls the fuel flow. Yes, the idle stop screw does affect rpm but only by controlling that airflow at the vacuum port in the throttle body. Adjust the idle stop screw, usually steel, with a slotted hexagonal head first to get your best vacuum reading. Then adjust the mixture screw for your idle rpm. Did you watch the video?
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Thank you for the detailed description. I watched it, but I don't have a dwell meter nor the same carburetor or even the same carb position (DJ3A) so I didn't absorb it. I have now watched it "better educated" and can better understand your video (but still don't have a dwell meter tho). Question, how did you determine that 700RPM over 650RPM was best for your carb model? Was it in some "carb specs", or from "field tests responsiveness"? Also, could you please "educate me" on what "dwell" is and what it measures"? Thank you so much for your patience and "knowledge and experience" shared to Willys owners.
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Generators don't excite until 700 RPM.
This link will take you to a detailed explanation - https://www.howacarworks.com/ignition-system/checking-the-dwell-angle (https://www.howacarworks.com/ignition-system/checking-the-dwell-angle)
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Good to know about the 700 RPM trigger. Thanks for the link, it was one of several I visited to try to "catch up". I found it interesting that all had different dwell degrees indicated, from like this one of 52 degrees, to also, "45 degrees for four cylinders", and more like your suggested 42degrees, also found indicated on Willys specs at 42 degrees. I also found various and some very cumbersome methods suggested for "timing". I like your method best. Thanks for your time and patience.
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While 42º is the optimum, Dwell can be 42º, +/- 1º. So, 41º-43º is good. With the carburetor mixture, 1 1/2 to 2 full turns out from a light bottom is a basic starting point for adjustment of fuel flow at idle.
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Once you have reached the highest vacuum reading with the vacuum gauge you need to turn it back so the motor drops one hundred RPM. Lock the distributor down. Watch the vacuum gauge as you adjust the steel idle stop screw in the throttle lever to again reach the highest vacuum reading. Then adjust the mixture screw for 650-700 idle RPM.
i opened my service manual to educate my self a bit more, glad i did. when i first had it running, i was told i had a low idle. ( that was last year ) here i turned up the idle mixture screw, not the idle set screw ! i'm getting a timing light tonight to set the rpm. then redo what your video has in it, and hoping for better vacuum
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You don't need a timing light to set idle rpm. You need an analog Dwell/Tachometer.
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You don't need a timing light to set idle rpm. You need an analog Dwell/Tachometer.
i got one, seems to be some confusion as to were the wires go? to use the tach. the red wire goes to the neg side of the coil. black to a ground or battery. the 3rd wire looks like it was green goes ?
thanks
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Normal analog Dwell/Tachs have only two wires. Red and Black. No green. I can't see it from here. Photo?
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Does your tach/dwell meter have a switch to go to either tach or dwell readings? WHAT make and model is it?
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i have a dixco pro tester 5. i have it set on dwell. as per the worn directions on the back.... i have the green clamp to the neg side of the coil. red clamp to the poss of the battery, the black wire to ground. it doesn't have a 4 cylinder line on the meter ..... it says for 4 cylinder rpm/ dwell double 8 cylinder readings. it didn't work in any other combo of wire hook ups
it's showing me 400 rpm x 2 that's 800 rpm . the idle set screw slot is rounded out ( i assume it's because the faces the valve cover ) even using a wrench , i saw that some one used vice grips before, and rounded it as well. i'm going to try and lower the rpm today.
the brass port ( in the intake was loose ) were i hook up the vacuum gauge. that's now taped and tight.
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after 10 mins of running it won't run with out 1/2 choke. with choke on i have a tad over 800 rpm. any thing less then 1/2 choke it dies here is pics of my set up. what to check next ? is it normal for carb base to have condensation on it ? temp is around 60-65 2day
idle set screw is 3/4 out, it s barely touching the stop. idle mixture screw 1 full turn out. wants to die when i rev it.
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lXLvl
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lXIpk
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lX4xt
thanks for all the help.
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Does your tach/dwell meter have a switch to go to either tach or dwell readings? WHAT make and model is it?
posted a picture
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I found a link that offers a manual access but pic is in black and white of instrument. That said, it looks like there is one larger battery terminal clip, and a set "paired together" of different colors for smaller connections... if that helps any.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-dixco-pro-tester-tach-dwell-1893336636
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Second and third effort finally found a clear hook up pic. See attached... Black to ground, Green to coil (dist side), and Red to battery.
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Second and third effort finally found a clear hook up pic. See attached... Black to ground, Green to coil (dist side), and Red to battery.
thanks for looking that up.... that's how i have it hooked up.
sat i will pull it out side and try again. hope it will run with out choke
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Vacuum reading? You may have to adjust the mixture screw out a little. Don't be afraid to experiment a little. The worst that can happen is it will shut off.
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i tested the fuel pump as per the manual. i have 8 inches of vacuum on the wipers and 3 psi on the fuel. so we are in spec. it runs so bad i have to push it out side to run it now. to much fumes to keep in the garage
what are the odds i have a bad float ? or other bad part in the carb ??? and i have had it shut off on my a few times for sure
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i got the idle set screw turned up, idled ok, got it oit side. idles ok. choke is off. adjusted dist. vacuum is now in the green so 17/18 inches . dwell meter doesn't rise with rpm ??? i upped the throttle a few times seems snappy. dwell meter barely rose. so i'm assuming the rpms it's showing me isn't correct. going to work. mess with it tuesday still don't know my rpm. but i feel better
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THE NEXT STEP...Do you have an iPhone? We can do Facetime and I'm making a no-charge house call to help you. 336-963-3605 0700-1900 seven days a week. Call me.
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THE NEXT STEP...Do you have an iPhone? We can do Facetime and I'm making a no-charge house call to help you. 336-963-3605 0700-1900 seven days a week. Call me.
i got another meter to use, ( i did get one on ebay,it will be next week till i get it ) and the first dwell tach was right :( i have 800 rpms. any lower the 780 and it stumbles, and stalls. i've tryed re setting the idle set screw, and the idle mixture screw, in different combos . and 780 is the lowest i can got before the vacuum gauge goes all over ( up and down very fast , then a stall ) i assume that the carb comes off, and i have a float issue? i'm thinking to much fuel ?
an eye phone ? na i'm old fashion, i got a flip phone. off to work in a bit. maybe fri morning if your avl ? i'll check the board here before i call you. thanks....
hope these pics help. at the 780-800 range it purrs, the vacuum is steady
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lXMQc
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lXZsF
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I'm here all day. 0700-1900, seven days a week.
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I'm here all day. 0700-1900, seven days a week.
thanks, i will reach out after lunch.
i did read the service manual today, and learned about the low speed circuit and perhaps i have some carbon build up in the throat of the carb. or some of those tiny passages need cleaned
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thanks rick for a huge hand in helping getting the idle down were it should be.
it's around 640 -670 rpm at idle. i really thought the carb was coming off for a cleaning of the low circuit passages. rick knows carbs and how to adjust them , even over the phone with a guy like me.
thanks again
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Happy trails my friend...
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Whew! Well done!
On to the next challenge!
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took the flatty to the hard ware store monday, the gas fumes were so bad i had to turn around. he's the plugs. i got 8 miles on them scene fri. when i did the carb adjustments and vacuum tune up. i did have a fuel hose clamp strip when i tightened it. going for a new clamp in a few mins. thoughts ???
thanks for any ideas
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lpYjq
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lpqWV
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lpasN
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lpdgJ
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lpSL0
https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/lp2d5
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Does your Jeep have a full top?
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Does your Jeep have a full top?
it does not, jut a bikini top. i went over the 2 rubber lines i have, and they were dry. dawned on me that the gas would evaporate. so i will get it out side tuesday and run it and check the rubber lines.
could the rubber line that goes past the exhaust manifold be bad even if it looks fine ? i have it zip tied to the vent in the fender to keep it away from the heat. the solid lines that go from the fuel pump to the carb are tight.
sorry i didn't get back sooner garage was flooded. too much rain in the last week here
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An air infiltration leak will not leak gasoline.
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An air infiltration leak will not leak gasoline.
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ok thanks...
i had time to work on it today. started good. once running it sounded bad aka not smooth like the other fri. when screws were adjusted.. once off choke it would shut off. it's around 82 here today.. i may have flooded it, it won't run now. still smell gas.
i soap/ water mixure tested all the fuel line fittings, and no bubbles. while it was running.
on the carb the gasket between the top an bottom, was damp. had a gas smell to it
just trying to throw any info that i can see
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I'm sorry. I need a refresher. Does your heat riser work? Air infiltration into the fuel line will not show as bubbles on the fittings. Air is getting in, not out.
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I'm sorry. I need a refresher. Does your heat riser work? Air infiltration into the fuel line will not show as bubbles on the fittings. Air is getting in, not out.
i have a cj 3b. so no heat riser on the manifold. as for the air infiltration thats why i used soapy water on all the fuel line fittings, to check for any air leaks coming out. i didn't get any bubbles.
would a bad float cause this ? my plugs would be wet though ... rite
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OK. No heat riser. Now then. Please do not take this personally as I mean no offense. Let me be perfectly clear. The fuel line should be full of gasoline. With a fuel line air leak air is being sucked into INTO the fuel line. It is not getting OUT of the fuel line or the fittings. The soapy water will only be sucked into the fuel line further exacerbating your issue.
The float has nothing to do with this problem.
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OK. No heat riser. Now then. Please do not take this personally as I mean no offense. Let me be perfectly clear. The fuel line should be full of gasoline. With a fuel line air leak air is being sucked into INTO the fuel line. It is not getting OUT of the fuel line or the fittings. The soapy water will only be sucked into the fuel line further exacerbating your issue.
The float has nothing to do with this problem.
ok, got ya. i thought it would be like a tire.
i'm replacing the fuel hose and clamps. that's the one thing that i have not changed. i'm going to add hose length to keep it farther way from the manifold.
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i replaced the hose from the fuel pump to the filter, i got a braided fuel line. there was no fuel in the old line.( i get it that it drains back over time ) new line is on, replaced the the spring tension style clamps with a screw style hose clamp.
i can't get fuel to the filter or to the pump. what a day i'm having. i ve cranked it more then a few times. i ran air few psi through the fuel line to the tank. i didn't hear it bubble, but i did see fumes come out the filler neck ( cap was off ) tank looks super clean and is 3 years old. The fuel tank was very low, so i will get gas tonight and try it again
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If you must use rubber tubing I strongly suggest you buy and use High Pressure Fuel Injection clamps. They will wrap the tube completely and lower the possibility of the tube bunching and allowing an air leak. Worm-drive clamps will fail you.
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If you must use rubber tubing I strongly suggest you buy and use High Pressure Fuel Injection clamps. They will wrap the tube completely and lower the possibility of the tube bunching and allowing an air leak. Worm-drive clamps will fail you.
thanks for that tip.
i pulled up my driver seat, and found a * ton of dust around were the float unit goes in. i didn't have rtv or sealant on that cork gasket. it has some now. i'll let it dry, add gas tues/weds and try it again.
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If you must use rubber tubing I strongly suggest you buy and use High Pressure Fuel Injection clamps. They will wrap the tube completely and lower the possibility of the tube bunching and allowing an air leak. Worm-drive clamps will fail you.
thanks for that tip.
i pulled up my driver seat, and found a * ton of dust around were the float unit goes in. i didn't have rtv or sealant on that cork gasket. it has some now. i'll let it dry, add gas tues/weds and try it again.
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the cork gasket on the float, was the culprit. why didn't i check that sooner ?
thanks to every one who had input :)
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Check it from time to time. My experience is that RTV won't hold up to gas. If you see more leakage, recommend Permatex #2. Although, I've had good luck with my cork gasket there (knock on wood).
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Let me add a recommendation for Permatex Indian Head Shellac simply because you're not dealing with high pressure.
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Let me add a recommendation for Permatex Indian Head Shellac simply because you're not dealing with high pressure.
I'll second that, Indian Head is my go-to!