My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Electrical Systems => Topic started by: bob3b on May 27, 2021, 09:01:45 PM
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So after returning from the Reunion I moved my Jeep to my barn to work on my trailer. Went to move it back and parked it in the driveway for about ten minutes. When I went to start it again there was not electrical power at all.
I drug it into the garage and started working on it. Here is what I have down so far:
The headlights will work but once you try to start it the breaker on the headlight switch trips immediately.
I changed out the solenoid with no effect, it just clicks.
I took the wires off the starter switch (which I actually have wired to activate the solenoid) and just put them together to try to start it. It trips the breaker
I can crank it over by jumping straight to the starter from the battery, but that trips the breaker too.
I have been tracing wires around and see nothing wrong with them so far.
I'm wondering if the breaker went bad?
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Hi Bob, what model jeep do you have?
And do the electrics all work before you try to turn the engine over? ie horn, brake lights any indicators if you have them.
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Bob,
Thankfully it happened afterwards - in your driveway! From a remote arm chair, I've studied the early wiring diagram and see that the light switch (circuit breaker) is "down stream" of the ignition switch. If I were under the dash, I'd be concentrating on the ignition switch, ammeter, starter (you've already been looking at it) as well as the starter switch and even the voltage regulator and coil. -They're all connected in front of the circuit breaker.
My limited personal experience with the circuit breaker is it works when there's a short. While a loose connection could keep a component from working, I don't believe that alone would cause the cb to trip (no circuit vs. overload/shorting).
I think back to when I was troubleshooting electrical systems and we had the luxury of isolating amps and volts - much better than volts alone. One of the initial checks was solenoid symptoms when attempting a crank. A chattering noise usually indicated a weak battery. A single solid click usually meant starter/solenoid issues. USUALLY....
Could the breaker be bad? Maybe, but it's after the ignition circuit and since it's tripping and resetting, I could incorrectly assume it's working. I'd be looking before that.
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Have you checked the ground wires and the points at which the ground wires connect?
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I'm thinking the solenoid is either "shorted", or wired backwards to cause the short from "jump starting battery directly to the starter". Use a multimeter to see if power/short goes across any of the terminals just sitting there. The "jump start" should have cranked the starter, but by-pass the solenoid if not wired "on" all of the time or "shorted", as the sequence of events described happened... or at least as I understand them. Just thinking out loud. Worked, then nothing next start attempt minutes later. Headlights and circuit breaker "work fine" until you hit the "start for the solenoid", blowing the breaker, right? Disconnect the solenoid from the circuit and try the "jump start" again. That's my 2 cents worth from here. Good luck! Please keep us posted with changes.
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First thing you need to do is to disconnect and clean both battery terminals - cables and posts. Make them clean and shiny. If you have any clamp-on style replacement battery terminals, you need to disassemble them and clean them, and get rid of them tomorrow.
A dirty terminal may pass enough amperage to operate the headlights, but when the dirty connection is subjected to the kind of amperage the starter draws, it “blows” the tiny contact patch that is transmitting current. Everything stops then, that may be what you’re thinking is the breaker tripping. Often when the load is reduced, that tiny area of contact will re-establish itself, until its hit by a big shot of amperage.
BW
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To answer the first question it is a cj3b wired as original except to 13 volt and Instead if the starter button having the main power run through it I use that to activate a solenoid as I don’t trust the new foot switch with that kind of voltage.
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So far I have check the starter and it checks fine, I checked the solenoid and it is fine as is the foot switch. I have both a starter button on the floor and a solenoid as I don't trust that new button with all of that voltage.
Next I'll check out the grounds and make sure they are all good, and then start looking under the dash. I have been told it could be the amp gauge as well. It is definitely tripping the breaker, but only when trying to start it. The lights, horn, turn signals, etc won't blow the breaker. Only trying to start it.
With the starter disconnected it will not blow the breaker when depressing the foot starter.
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Hiya, it must be a short in your starter circuit. If you turn the ignition on and then cross the solenoid..... Thus avoiding the starter switches, can you get it to start? . If so it's your switches. Worth a try?
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I’m on vacation now but will try this when I get home.
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The circuit breaker on the headlight switch does not protect or control anything outside the lighting circuits controlled by the headlight switch. At least, not as the jeep is originally wired. The circuit breaker gets its power from the amp gauge which gets its power from, basically, the start circuit. Not the other way around. There is no way, the way the jeep is originally wired, the starter circuit can overload the headlight circuit breaker.
Have you cleaned the battery cables yet?
BW
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Yes. Cleaned cables tonight. Also tonight I isolated the start circuit and the run circuit out from the rest of the jeep. It started and ran just fine. When I put the wires back and wires a different starter switch in the solenoid clicked a couple times and the breaker shut it all down
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From where are you sourcing your "starter button/switch" power? Is it from "key on position", or elsewhere? Is your starter solenoid mounted on the starter with a push button lever-activated from button on the floor like this one... https://www.ebay.com/itm/133438931541?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=133438931541&targetid=1263094005266&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9011932&poi=&campaignid=11612431353&mkgroupid=121893126363&rlsatarget=pla-1263094005266&abcId=9300456&merchantid=112061140&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI85u39OiZ8QIV8AytBh1RSwLJEAQYBCABEgI1qvD_BwE
... or a three wire mount-grounded, or a four wire terminal "remote solenoid" like this one... https://www.ebay.com/itm/402708176627?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D232899%26meid%3D7ae8a5a42fcf4caebdf2618ac5d9781d%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D203116886513%26itm%3D402708176627%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A4027081766277ae8a5a42fcf4caebdf2618ac5d9781d%7Cenc%3AAQAGAAACAMaE4FzWpXoqVBZoe4WgarIiyOnuWRbjCoKnyUoIl2UjczjcrJ3efYRrwGCg997cIzHxvyV1e5PnLrXg%252F%252BmSQYvljkwF4cOnxQs9h%252F7Acvjrv0CoKgJ0qUsTMPwo9ezkr%252BzFWcYsUhONMxJUUvFatkv%252F2pgryQ%252BYIFequnsw4WGncm85zei4VLdB9FySxmRqDfw%252BeAJIjS3U8UUIXwMnsWn7DyjPQGDVH2kcaXeyl16R1r%252Bzc62c0YK%252BFjl%252Fr59IIAjL9qJhLCCM9yzgNMlBewBzzA%252BRFoHqlIKXvVcxLNlIZNO5SeJRrOg%252FLCdqzhNtx7Bko74%252F%252FO4ADqjXbGLsewQUlo6lUgYWihLgXE%252BZjjSO7LYs9YfBtRnj76RvK%252FX%252BEFe0iTJZvokbCvF7qfPe1CmQswsD6aQuK2C8UQkBWApfsO9eQIfalDZVKugz3a%252BXBI74Wih97KdG6Bb7SFSBIlV9Dor5LcfSDcgmGaATG6TCflEBxL3pd7zx40%252F1uT57kVk38FfHSysGKXg%252BNnO6y39SFGBdxWX%252B3VWT7sZwFwuLGee%252BE343n51XUIa8tnRw9qYyQBdmPbXI6PFN%252B%252FGMGZX7e9DT6DLHxzL0dvKKog%252BPf%252Bfff0wyyrAlRuIvOqwWgFhDhRKSFkgz2AGuoJzFhF%252FdhrWa0NfGlykOrFHB2Aw4%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675
It is my understanding that a "floor mounted starter button" is only a "lever" to the starter ... with only a battery cable attached to it. If a remote solenoid is in use, I'm suspect it may be wired backward or 'shorted' back-feeding voltage into the "protected circuit" not usually part of the "starter drive power circuit", since you indicated "when isolated it seems to work fine" on its own.
It seems to be in the "added wiring" section some where, to my way of thinking out loud from here, and not there watching the tests.
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I believe I have it narrowed down to the starter switch. If I supply power to the coil direct from the battery it all operates as normal. I’m going to source a new switch.
My foot starter was wired to get power from the solenoid and send it back to the small post on the solenoid.
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Quote... "My foot starter was wired to get power from the solenoid and send it... back... to the small post on the solenoid."... and apparently also connected to the rest of the circuits... somewhere... in your wiring for "run" condition maybe, and possibly drawing too much amperage thru the breaker???
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Bob,
You've used this setup for a while, right? For a period, it worked until you got home from the reunion?
From your first post:
I took the wires off the starter switch (which I actually have wired to activate the solenoid) and just put them together to try to start it. It trips the breaker
Later, you suspect you've narrowed it down to the ignition switch itself. I didn't catch whether you had a 3-postition ignition switch that's acc/off/on or if you have the later style with the momentary "crank" position (doesn't need to be used if the floor switch is used).
That test where you disconnected the switch and touched the wires together gave you the same problem popping the cb. Somebody didn't re-wire your starting circuit while you weren't looking, did they?
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It was a bad post on the ignition switch. I got a new one today and when I took the old one out the post was loose. It works as it should now. My guess is that that post must’ve been grounding out.
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It was a bad post on the ignition switch. I got a new one today and when I took the old one out the post was loose. It works as it should now. My guess is that that post must’ve been grounding out.
A happy ending! Nice.