My Willys 3A and 3B Community

3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: oldtime on March 15, 2021, 04:46:55 PM

Title: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: oldtime on March 15, 2021, 04:46:55 PM

OK so I came across this seemingly very early 3A.
Hard to pin exact identification down with it being in such poor condition.
But here let’s suppose this engine number is correct to this particular CJ-3A.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/15/9A40479E-F2D7-461A-A7CD-DF51CB0461A1.jpg)

If CJ-3A production begins in early 1949 model year with a new numbering system of 3  J 10001; then this seemingly was the 59th engine installed on the CJ-3A assembly line.
So it seems likely to me that it may be from the earliest known barely surviving 3A to date.
According to the 1949 production figures only 2182 of the 2-A’s were built in the 1949 model year.
And 27,749 of the 3A’s were also built that year.

Sorry but that just gets me to thinking ... when exactly was the first 3A built ?
So now I am assuming via what seems logical to me.

IF IF IF rougly 30,000 jeeps were built that year and they ran the assembly line 300 working days per year, then about 100 cj’s rolled off the line per day. Right ?

IF IF IF the 1949 production begins on August 1st of 1948 and all 2A’s were completed before 3A production starts; then 3A production begins somewhere near the 22nd of August 1948.

Let’s now assume that perhaps 3A production begins at the beginning of a new day.
Now IF IF IF 100 cj jeeps are rolling off the line each day then engine # 10059 was installed the very first day of 3A production.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: oldtime on March 15, 2021, 07:21:05 PM

Hmmnn. Obviously the Jeep could not have been built in August with a head date as shown.
Unless the head sat for most of a year.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/15/B8BA305A-8370-466F-B2A8-D6D2866009F7.jpg)

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: athawk11 on March 15, 2021, 10:16:55 PM

Bob's book states that the beginning of the new production year for Willys Overland was generally around November of the prior year.

But...the very first CJ3As started rolling off the line in December of 1948.  A bit later than the usual starting point. .

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: oldtime on March 16, 2021, 09:31:10 AM

Yes thanks Tim.
I have not had the priveledge of reading Bobs book, but have been in contact.
Like many others on these Willys forums I think about jeeps when waking up in middle of the night.
I decided I will try and photo document some of the features found on this particular Jeep.
It should prove useful to help distinguish the line between 2A’s and 3A’s.

So let me get you all up to speed on this particular Jeep.
I came across a Facebook ad for a 1949 CJ just the other day.
Me needing a bonafide 3A title; I posted this: https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/facebook-help_topic48962.html

From the EWillys Facebook listing https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/388347132224300
you can see that it’s in very rough condition but I was mainly interested in the title and so I started probing.

Got in contact with the owner and went to take a look.
The validity of the title remains in question at this time.
It was last titled in 1956 and has had 2 owners since that time.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/2B82643C-BBD8-4B77-A95F-BEEA03F623AD.jpg)
As you can see it was bought by the cemetary in 1956 and the current owner tells me his deceased father purchased it in 1988.
Sadly it looks like Missouri failed to identify the serial number of this Jeep in 1956.

I immediately got to reading some of Bobs info on dating a 3A.
http://www.cj3a.info/cj3a/date3a.htm
No sooner than I saw the original engine number I began to suspect this as being a very early CJ3A.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/388347132224300

Here is where the suspense began for me: the original unmolested engine number...
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/15/9A40479E-F2D7-461A-A7CD-DF51CB0461A1.jpg)
If correct this would be the 59th CJ-3A rolling off the assembly line.
Perhaps even an earlier one if the engine numbers were somehow skewed.

From here on I will attempt to photo document some of it’s most important features.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: BillT on March 16, 2021, 09:45:28 AM

Looking forward to this discussion.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: oldtime on March 16, 2021, 04:08:07 PM

Here you can already see that this one is as dead as the cemetery residents where it worked most of it’s hard life from 1956 -1988.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/E710F044-421B-4791-88E5-9527A0F68801.jpg)

At some point the bed was cut off and a wooden box took its place which the current owner has removed.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/A3C17FE7-0F22-4661-B964-37CA2AEE2336.jpg) (https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/j4d0a)

(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/77A3B84C-2A87-4158-B25F-5A955F634062.jpg)

Closer view of the dash area.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/18CB9BC4-C650-4C78-A100-71A211C315E2.jpg)

Nothing pretty here either:
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/D09B8F26-3F1C-44E2-B5CD-38790E8C0416.jpg)
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/9E2A6FBF-1EC4-4466-BCF1-6E7685D1AAF3.jpg)

Now Let’s go back and take a closer look at the front view:
Note that the serial number plate and the body tag are both missing.
That fact along with missing information on the 1956 title makes it near impossible for a positive I.D.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/6782BC9E-568B-4F91-B5EB-A8ED2D43DDB3.jpg)

Here we see an early 3A grill from the rear. Note how the lower preshroud is attached.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/16/9515C253-3454-44E5-B5B1-E6199C3C8A40.jpg)

Next I’ll show various things we can use for better identification.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: 64CJ5 on March 17, 2021, 09:33:40 AM

A replacement head.  Seems that most of these Jeeps are not completely original as to the parts they came off the assembly line with.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: oldtime on March 17, 2021, 08:32:37 PM

Back to the engine:
Here we see the Willys block number to be correct for an early 3A block.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/762A6C8A-29B4-4B7E-945F-68B6368B2A83.jpg)

And toward the rear of the block we find the date code as shown:
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/0251D1B8-489D-49A1-A5C2-98912676CA00.jpg)

The ALite distributor is of the correct model and the date code is obviously stamped for the month of December with an letter stamp “C” .

 ALite year of manufacture renewed to letter A” in 1946.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/208AC4E1-0CB2-4D04-A1DF-207B2FDCED32.jpg)

Moving along... Here we have the Brown and Lipe serial number 241669.
And I forgot to take a pic of the casting date but it showed M2-8 which translates to 12/2/48.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/7E9292AF-26E8-4BB4-9303-0244CD591432.jpg)

The transmission casting date does not correlate.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/162BEFF1-6D15-463C-8433-3E529B2FCE78.jpg)

Nor the transmission assembly date.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/ECE74CC0-F8B5-40FC-831C-40FABCC5D7A9.jpg) (https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/j4wTi)

The model 41 ring gear was not stamped as I expected
I found the Salisbury gear to be very lightly stamped as shown.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/A57379EE-9238-4C64-99B0-1F9F7782E744.jpg) (https://www.mywillyspics.com/image/j4nIV)

I was not able to find the number on the broken and rusted front ring gear.
Also I could not find any trace of number on the rusty speedometer housing.

But I did get good examples of the original paint as can be seen here under the missing serial number plate.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/D3FFB06B-8975-4451-844D-59F28FA5F0DD.jpg)

And here under the door channel.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/7805B62A-9A3F-46A6-965E-E224533E3D1B.jpg)

And of course the original wheel color scheme.
(https://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2021/03/17/25BA6210-5DBB-40AF-B454-F324AC8379E7.jpg)

So I pretty well ran out of accessible identifiers but I do believe this one to be a genuine 1949 somewhere around serial number CJ-3A 10059. Possibly earlier if the engine and serial numbers were already skewed at that time.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: Bob W on March 17, 2021, 09:03:09 PM

Thanks for documenting this CJ-3A!! Looks to me like the transmission was replaced at some point. I'd say the Jeep was assembled in the second half of December 1948. There may be a casting date on the left side of the bellhousing close to the transmission.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: oldtime on March 17, 2021, 09:14:37 PM

Great idea Bob...if I go back I’ll look for the bell casting date.
And perhaps remember to take a pic of the transfer case cast date too.

This for me was a real thrill finding such an early specimen.
Several years back I was fortunate enough to come across the earliest known surviving Renegade I and this was every bit as much fun to re-discover this significant piece of Jeep history.

And yes this Jeep is currently available for sale.

Title: Re: Making a few CJ-3A assumptions (aka thinking out loud)
Post by: Spacecrab on March 22, 2021, 09:17:34 PM

That's a great find, real interesting post

Amazing how that windshield rubber seems to be in perfect condition  ;D