My Willys 3A and 3B Community
Your Projects => Your CJ-3A Project => Topic started by: swofford on February 21, 2021, 07:08:42 PM
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I had attempted to post here earlier about a project that my son is starting for he and I to do.
Just before the massive weather issue over the past week, my son had made a deal for 2 CJ3A(s). One was dropped of just before the cold weather hit. It is supposed to be a 1951 CJ3A, the other is supposed to be a 1953 CJ3A.
Today was the 1st real day we were able to look at the 51. To my surprise, since I had not seen the vehicle before it got dropped off, the engine is a decent and quiet running powerplant. At least a part of a 12V conversion had been done. It has a 12V regulator with a resistor block. The coil is 6V (904?). Still had generator and what looks like an original style starter. We are trying to determine what it really is through.
The vehicle looks to have an offset rear diff and a front diff. (but we need to figure out if it is a true Dana 44/25 setup or something else). Spicer transfer case, T90 transmission, etc...
And now is where things gets strange for us. If we look at the body of the vehicle, it doesn't appear to be a CJ3A... but more a DJ3A Dispatcher. The problem with that is, they were kin to the 3B... and weren't produced until 1955 or so...
I am trying to figure out if this is a CJ-3A that somehow ended up with a DJ-3A body/tub or is not a 3A at all...
I went looking for a plate or imprint on the frame or engine to tell me, but nothing was apparent. There is a casting on the top of the engine, which I have to do a paper etching to see if I can read it better and go looking, but then that may or may not really prove anything.
To compound the difficulty of identifying... I am wondering why the hood would have Willys imprints on each side... but the tailgate has nothing...
Any initial guidance on where I need to look for serial numbers or other information that could help us figure out what this thing is?
Thanks
Larry Swofford
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Welcome to the forum Larry.
The DJ’s did not have tailgates.
And parts wise resemble both 3A and 3B with a few unique features all their own.
If you are able to upload pics that should simplify identification for most components and assemblies.
Many old become an admixture of Willys models and vintages over time.
Having No tailgate stamping suggests it to be aftermarket or military.
A true 1951 frame normally had no identification stamping.
This is a single wall non laminated frame ?
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trying to post photos again... maybe the total size was too large.
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Photo 2
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photo 3
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photo 5
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photo 6
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photo 4
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photo 7
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Pics are too blurry for precise detail but from what I can tell it certainly appears to be a normal cj3a with only a few relatively minor deviations from original condition.
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I haven't seen enough 3A's to pick one [out] that's been cleverly disguised but I did notice the instrument cluster (I don't [know] the actual diameter of a cluster gauge) and the cut-out for the transfer case shifters (is it square and rough?). Also that hole above the passenger tail light could have been home to a gas filler neck at some point.
Researching this ought to be fun!
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Rus and Oldtime...
Thanks for the responses...
Oldtime - from a brochure for DJ-3As on CJ3B.info, it appears that some DJ-3A could have had a tailgate and some did not...
Rus - you noticed the 'instrument' cluster, just as we did... It only had one large cutout, which would have been for the speedometer that might have also had a gauge or two in it... on this one, someone, sometime, put in a 4 gauge cluster set...and there is no speedometer at all... which is suspect in my mind. The dash also didn't come with all the usual cutouts...
Also, it does appear that there was a hack job done on the tunnel, which could be another indication that the body is non-standard.
In reading some of the information on the CJ3B.info page, the DJ-3A came 2 wheel drive mainly, but some got modified to be 4 wheel later (probably by owners?). According to the article, DJ's originally came with a Spicer 23 rear end and updated later to a Spicer 27.... but these are all centered 'pumpkins'... and our is offset...plus it has the front differential and xfer case... I need to clean up the diff(s) and see if there are any markings on them to tell us if they are Dana44 back/Dana25 front or what....
This is going to take some time and a lot of reading investigation to understand what we have....
I really appreciate people taking the time to respond.
Larry
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If I may add my 2 cents in, and I own a Dispatcher, a "DJ Dispatcher" IS with a tailgate, and the Willys stamp is missing due to the "swing down tag light and bracket" was mounted there. Are there holes there for the bracket? The Surrey/Gala and Convertible models did not have tailgates. Another thing, as Rus noticed, the Fuel Filler hole above the Passenger tail light, that would be DJ3A potential, and in order for that to be used as a DJ, there would be no "V" bracket on the rear frame like on CJ3A/Bs, as that was where the fuel tank was. This body has what appears to be a "side fuel" inlet location, so either might be modifications. The DJs all had the Speedo cluster like the CJ3A/Bs with fuel and temp gauges. If originally a DJ, the serial number begins with 5332, and the frame is stamped in front of the passenger tub mount on top of the frame. A DJ would also been "three on the tree", so the column would have signs of the shifter shaft pivot location potentially. A DJ tunnel is already cut out for 4WD type setup, just covers over it. At the moment, those are the most obvious indicators that I can come up with by memory. The research should be interesting. Good Luck, and please keep us posted.
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PS... correction, serial number begins with 56337 (poor memory). Also, There are no pics of your engine yet, but a DJ has a different intake manifold with the carb mount bolts parallel with the firewall, not the engine block, and the throttle linkage comes up between manifold runners from a pivot on the rear valve cover mount.
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Thanks for showing us your new project. It's always fun trying to figure out what we've got.
Along with what has already been spotted...
-There is no passenger side under-seat toolbox.
-The current fuel inlet looks to have been "repositioned". Looks like they bolted it to this location.
Because the fuel tank location mod, my initial guess will be that it is a CJ3A rolling chassis and 3A front clip sheet metal...with a DJ3A Dispatcher tub. As mentioned above, a peek under the hood can give us more hints.
Looks like a fun project!! :)
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Thanks all....
athawk11... I told my son the exact same thing yesterday when we were looking at the vehicle.
CJ3A frame and drivetrain.... front clip...and DJ3A tub that had been modified...
I will try to get some engine photos sometime tomorrow....
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I noticed the shift lever....it's curved like one from a MB or GPW, T-84 transmission. Just another mystery.....
Randy
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Guys, sorry I haven't posted the engine photos that I said I would. Got my 2nd Covid shot on Monday and, while symptoms were mild, they were just enough to kick my backside...and impede me doing that. Additionally, prioritization of things occurred. With the severe weather here in Texas last week, I had to take the RV to a shop 60 miles away to have damage assessment done, since it was 'preferred' by my insurance... while not being optimistic, I will just have to see how all that works out...
Larry
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OK, as promised (okay, a little late again)... Here are some photos of the engine bay. I have more, just focused on a decent driver, passenger and top for now... just ask what else or what area is needed.... Looking forward to the feedback...
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Were you able to read the engine number? That should tell if it's a 2a or 3a engine or some other variant.
It should be stamped in the block on the flat area just above the water pump.
There is more info here:
https://www.cj3apage.com/index/Tech_Tips/dating_a_cj.htm
All the big parts seem to be there. The blue cable bolted to the front of the exhaust manifold is a little odd but maybe just a convenient way to ground the engine. Normally there is a braded ground strap on the passenger side motor mount that grounds the engine to the frame.
Looks like a replacement fuel pump, but no big surprise there. A 3a would have a dual action fuel/vacuum pump.
Distributor is rotated differently than most. If the oil pump was changed and not indexed by the book, the distributor, which drives off the oil pump will be oriented a little differently than
standard, but if the timing is right and it runs well no big problem.
Here is a picture from the above link showing where the engine number is located..
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OK Guys..... First of a LOOONG line of questions...and we haven't even really started the project....
I attempted to look for a few things today.... like ANY serial numbers that might be visible on either of the CJ3A(s).... unsuccessfully.... I was able to read the casting numbers on the lower passenger engine block area of the 1953.... which says it is an L-134.... but that was all... Have to get the power washer back from my son and see if decades of oily grime will come off the 1951s engine.... I also guess I will need to remove the oil filter units on the front end of the heads to see if I can find a casting number for the head(s)...The 1953 does have a plate on the passenger side that is in bad shape...all scraped up. It appears to have some company name/logo looking thing but it is scraped badly... there may be some partial numbers but it will take time to really get the magnification units out to try and attempt to make them out.
Now, given all that... my real question is dealing with the 1951..... before I got too hot and sweaty... I crawled underneath the vehicle...to look things over... ok, slightly scan over things underneath. Saw a T-90 (at least I think it was a T-90). Also saw a Spicer transfer case with two driveshafts, one going to the front, one going to the rear.... then... What da Heck? Wait... ain't there supposed to be a e-brake hub coming off the back of previously noted Spicer transfer case? But lo, none was to be found... What was there was the driveshaft going to the rear... but it looks like it has been 'modified' as it appears to have been welded (at least I see what appears to be a weld), which extends the driveshaft enough to compensate for the missing e-brake hub....
Can someone help me understand if there is any 'standard' modification or upgrade that could have been done over the past 70 years and what the reasoning would have been for this? Or, is this just a redneck 'fix' when the e-brake failed or parts became unobtainium at some time in the past?
What I am assuming that we will somehow have to source a 'standard' driveshaft and the complete e-brake setup....
Thanks for playing the game.... There are no prizes to be awarded, only the appreciation of an old guy on a mission....
Larry
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I haven't heard anything after posting about my attempt to find serial numbers from the engine or frame.... I actually found this topic locked, so no one could reply... If I locked it...sorry... If not, I don't know how that happened.
If you attempted to respond to me, please try again, as this is now unlocked.
To add to the information of what I have found so far...
I purchased two new toys... a new compression tester gauge set and a Herbrand hub puller (old style, heavy as heck). I just completed testing the compression on both of the Jeep engines with the help of a friend. These readings were taken on a cold engines.
for the '1951 CJ3A'
Cyl Compression (lbs)
1 75
2 75
3 60
4 78
for the '1953 CJ3A'
Cyl Compression (lbs)
1 95
2 95
3 95
4 98
I will rerun the checks on the '1951' to verify, after running the engine for a few minutes.
Both engines run, with the 1951 seeming to run smoother...but compression should indicate the 1953 as the 'stronger' of the two.
The plugs on the 1951 appeared to have more carbon buildup on them over the ones from the 1953.
A couple of things that I see will need to be addressed sooner than later....
1. 1951 - The carburetor leaks fuel when running for any length of time (probably needs rebuilding anyway)
2. 1951 - Starter on occasions grinds and the arm for the starter foot pedal doesn't properly align with the actuator button on the starter itself.
3. 1953 accelerator pedal/connectors to the carburetor are not working properly.
Next on the agenda is to use the hub puller to pull the rear brake drums to inspect/evaluate the rear brakes.
Thanks for any input guys...
Larry
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The 1951 is certainly in need of service.
A valve job at the very least.
The 1953 numbers are not optimum but they are notably even and certainly acceptable for an L head.
This engine should benifit greatly using the Willys tune-up procedure.
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Oldtime, was checking the engine specs on Kaiserwillys....it was saying that the engine pressure should be between 90-110psi. I was assuming that the 1953 was in the good range and that the 1951 was in the 'tired' range.... or at least needing the carbon removed from the head and the valves worked on...
Are you thinking that the psi should be more on the 110 range... or do you have info showing different numbers for the compression from Kaiserwillys?
I know there are a ton of places to go find info...and info can vary between sources... so if there is a more reliable source, tell me...
BTW... as I mentioned, these numbers were on a cold engine. I think to get the most accurate measurement, the engine is supposed to be warm...but I don't really think warming it up would get me another 20psi in cylinders, right?
Thanks for the response.
Larryu
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Even though the various publications do contain occasional errors note that; Willys Overland, Kaiser Motors and Kaiser Jeep Corporation are the only valid sources concerning early Jeep specifications.
In this case KaiserWillys is correct.
90 to 110 psi at 7.0/1 compression ratio for the “L” head
120 to 130 psi at 7.4/1 (?) compression ratio for the “F” head
To verify the factory data let us reference my current Hurricane build.
My latest Jeep build has basically a nearly 100% NOS engine at around 7.8 CR and it has achieved 135 psi on all 4.
And it’s not broke in yet so the CR could feasibly go up but not much if any.
I would say your 1964 “L” head CR numbers are not perfect but they look perfectly serviceable.
The numbers are very even; impliing that all the valves are likely in good shape too.
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Thanks!