My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Electrical Systems => Topic started by: GunnersWillys on March 02, 2020, 01:49:44 PM
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Hey Folks:
I've read up on this quite a bit and done a fair amount of troubleshooting, and may have hit a wall. It's to the point now where it will be easier to ask versus continuing to throw parts at it.
Long story, but I bought this vehicle back a few months ago from a someone I'd sold it to several years ago. It was a bit neglected when I got it back and I've been working through issues. Since getting it back it's been hard to start. It seemed to run okay, spit a little, but overall ran pretty smoothly. I used it at a Jeep event last weekend, and it started running very rough after sitting out in the rain overnight. I changed the distributor cap because it looked pretty worn, also sprayed the wires with Wire Dryer, and it ran pretty well for most of one day. Still hard to start though.
Yesterday I installed new points and condenser. Wow, started easily and purred like a kitten (still a little pop at the tailpipe). I took it for a couple of short drives of a mile or two, then gave it a bath.
After, it fired right up and sounded solid. I decided to give it one more mile or so on the road. Before leaving the driveway I started to notice a spit. Half mile away, a much more pronounced miss. I turned around, got it home. It idled roughly for a minute or two then died.
I thought maybe the points had slipped so I reset. They were off a tiny bit. It ran, but still rough. This morning it wouldn't start. I picked up a new condenser, just in case, and installed it. No change. There was spark at the plugs but it wouldn't fire. I installed four new plugs, again just in case, it still wouldn't fire. I hit it with ether, it fired a little. Finally hit it with 4 short bursts or ether and it fired and ran. Better idle, but still missing. Driving, it does okay at low RPM but spits like crazy at high RPM and won't fully accelerate.
I can pull the wires off the plugs while running, and the idle drops as expected. Same for the distributor cap.
I've got new points on the way, again, just in case. I've not inspected timing. I've not messed with fuel as I'm under the assumption it's an electrical issue.
If new points don't fix it, where do I go from here?
Thanks.
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Just some things to consider.
Condenser: The internet is littered with stories from the Willys community about condensers. Often, they are bad right out of the box. I bought one from NAPA to freshen up my L134 engine. It ran just like you're describing. I put the old one back in and it continues to run just fine. I believe Joe's Motorpool is offering a good replacement.
Coil: I'm not sure this is your issue. When they fail, they have similar symptoms as a bad condenser and poor engine power, but they generally start acting up after the engine is nice and hot.
Timing: You didn't mention checking your timing.
Fuel Mixture: If the carburetor is set too lean, you may have issues at higher RPMs.
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Thanks. My local Autozone shows a condenser in stock. I'll pick one up this evening and see if it helps!
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My $.02... the statement that it fired up on the ether and with more of it ran smoothly, suggests to me a "fuel issue". Whether it is sucking air in somewhere messing with the mixture, or the pressure from the fuel pump is inadequate or not enough "volume", or the carb and/or fuel filter is dirty, are areas that I would check before doing the same parts over and over. You said "It has spark". "Move on to fuel related areas" is my suggestion. Good Luck!
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Just another thought, could it be spark plugs or spark plug wires. Something could be gaping as things warm up.
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Well, I installed a new coil, no change. I did find a bad wire, but after fixing it, again, no change. Following the new coil it would start and idle fine, run pretty smoothly up to mid-range rpm's, then go into limp mode at high rpm's.
Next I installed new points. Now it won't start at all, even with ether.
I noticed the distributor cam has a lot of play. Pulling on it you can move it up maybe 1/8th of an inch. No movement side to side, but spinning it clockwise or counter/clockwise, it moves more than I expected. Issue there?
I realized I've been assuming the PO didn't mess with my timing settings. I'll check that out tomorrow.
I haven't ruled out a fuel issue, but the pump is new and there is plenty of pressure. Once it starts it seems to get plenty of gas. The filter is new, I replaced it recently. There is no water in the tank. But if timing doesn't help I'll pull the top off the carb and check for crud.
I'll also pull a plug or two and check for spark, if I can't get it started in the morning. It's on a battery charger overnight.
Keep the ideas coming! Thanks.
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....and it started running very rough after sitting out in the rain overnight.....
Everything mentioned should be checked. Troubleshoot to avoid swapping parts. Condensers can be bad out of the box.
I also think of fuel.
Take a sample from your tank drain. Look for water droplets/sand/rust/etc. You may also want to open your carb and look in the bowl too.
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On the distributor there is a "hot" wire that goes through the side of the diz (attaches to a small terminal post). It must be insulated from the diz housing with a small fiber or rubber "grommet/washer" set up of some sort. A couple of years ago at the FCT, we were stumped by a similar problem and it turned out that the insulating washers had deteriorated to the point that the post terminal was making contact with the diz housing. The jeep won't run when this happens. Maybe something to check out.
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I had one issue that matched part of your description. I could accelerate well through 1st and 2nd gear but 3rd felt like hitting a wall of air. That was fixed by advancing the distributor a couple of degrees.
I also had to keep my choke half on.
So if your distributor can rotate even slightly by hand I would consider that a potential cause.
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No spark to the plugs at all this morning. I was not comfortable with the way I'd stacked the condenser terminal and coil terminal with the points spring. New condenser had a weird set-up. So I pulled it and installed the old one. Fire returned, and I got it started with ether. Runs intermittently rough still, so I'd like to mess with the timing.
Well I can't budge the distributor. I loosened the nut that locks it down, No budging it. It won't turn as needed to change timing. Before I break something, is there some trick? I've never had this problem before.
EDIT: I read up a bit, and have been soaking the base of the distributor with PB Blaster, then running and cooling the engine. No luck yet. I tapped the disty with a hammer lightly. Now no spark at the plugs again. Can't win.
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There is a youtube video by Metalshaper where he shows how to get a stuck distributor out. Unfortunately I cant find it at the moment. He does soak it several times and I think he ended up busting it anyway but says it usually works after a few days of re applying.
I suppose if it's that stuck I'd try the other suggestions before going down that route (while continuing to soak)
(found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaP9ug03zjY&t=1209s )
No spark to the plugs at all this morning. I was not comfortable with the way I'd stacked the condenser terminal and coil terminal with the points spring. New condenser had a weird set-up. So I pulled it and installed the old one. Fire returned, and I got it started with ether. Runs intermittently rough still, so I'd like to mess with the timing.
Well I can't budge the distributor. I loosened the nut that locks it down, No budging it. It won't turn as needed to change timing. Before I break something, is there some trick? I've never had this problem before.
EDIT: I read up a bit, and have been soaking the base of the distributor with PB Blaster, then running and cooling the engine. No luck yet. I tapped the disty with a hammer lightly. Now no spark at the plugs again. Can't win.
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Be patient with it. Please! Soak it and work it a little in a couple of hours. This may take a few days. PLEASE be patient. Use a strap wrench.
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Success! Sort of. I tinkered with the connections for the condenser and points and got spark back. Started it with ether, but it didn't want to start. I'm able to move the distributor clockwise and counterclockwise about 1/4 inch, enough to mess with the timing. Timed it by ear and found the sweet spot for best idle and mid-range RPM's, the took it for a ride. Still spits badly and won't quite complete the high RPM band before is sputters and stops accelerating. Again tinkered with the timing and found the sweetest spot for upper RPMs, but the issue still stands.
So I don't think it's timing.
Running out of time this week. When I can get back to it I'll start on the carb. Gas looks a little cloudy in the tank. Maybe I'll drain it and start with fresh.
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After you pull the air horn assembly from the top of carburetor you should measure the depth of gasoline in the fuel well. That alone will tell you a lot about fuel supply into the carburetor.
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Progress! Good to hear you can move the distributor. I tuned it once by ear and it wasn't advanced enough (should be 5* before TDC) and it ran rough. Keep soaking and moving the distributor.
Bad gas will make life difficult.
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On the timing, I hooked up my light and clearly see a mark on the pulley. There is a "pointing finger", not sure what to call it, that is wide at the top and tapers to a point at the bottom. At idle the mark is nowhere near that pointer. And it doesn't really move much when I rev the engine. Does that point represent TDC? Or 5 degrees before TDC? And at what RPM should I lock it down.
Odd, but none of this is in the book I have. It just discusses static timing. Thanks.
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Look at 1955CJ-5's post here:
https://cj3apage.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3538.msg29819#msg29819
Is this bolt on timing mark what you're describing? I would think there should be two marks on it. Using the image from above, the notch to the left is 5* before and the notch to the right is TDC.
My timing mark is stamped into the timing gear cover and I used a toothpick to dab a little bit of white paint into that mark as well as the pulley notch - makes it easier to see with the timing light.
Added: Here's an image I used when I discussed my oil hose issues. You can see the timing marks highlighted with white paint.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/841/43473203932_2508905200_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29ezwWQ)
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Back at it. The bolt-on timing mark is what I have. So the edge closer to 9:00 would be 5 degrees BTC, and the edge closer to 12:00 would be TDC. Makes sense.
Do I check timing at idle? Or rev’d? I did the same as Russ when I rebuilt the engine and put a white mark on the pulley so the pulley notch is easy to see. At idle the mark is an inch away from the BTC mark. It’s a vacuum advance distributor, so I can rev it and it moves toward it. I can move the distributor enough to get it close, and it runs really rough. It ran great after I rebuilt the engine. Since I got it back from the guy I sold it to it has run well a couple of times prior to touching the timing. So I moved on to fuel.
I drained all the fuel, pumped it out of the tank actually. Put in 3 gallons of fresh gas. The old fuel seemed fine, no water. I pulled the top off the carb. There is a little bit of trash in the bowl but not much. With the float pulled out it was just under half full. I adjusted the float to allow more fuel and reassembled. No change. I sprayed carb cleaner down the throat with it running, no change. I have not pulled the carb and cleaned the main body, but maybe that is next?
Kind of stuck now. Weird part is after I put in new points and condenser it ran and started perfect, then it degraded again. Not sure what to try next. Suggestions? Thanks.
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Update: This morning I pulled the carb and cleaned it. There was a little bit of crud on a needle, but not much. Reassembled, no difference. Still running really rough. Fresh gas, clean carb. Still not sure what to do next. All that's left are spark plug wires and a maybe a new distributor.
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....none of this is in the book I have. It just discusses static timing......
At the risk of stating the obvious, have you verified wires are in correct order? If you put a wrench on the crank nut and slowly turn until you feel compression with your finger in the #1 spark plug hole, pop the cap and see where the rotor is. Even if it's not at the 5 o'clock position mark it as #1 then: 1-3-4-2 CCW. (mine was 180* out).
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Thanks Russ, and yes, I've confirmed. I had to because when I replaced the cap I got the wires mixed up. That was a couple of weeks ago. I rechecked just to be certain I didn't mis-wire since then. # 1 is at 5:00 as it should be. I rebuilt the engine a while back and have the oiler positioned properly.
Update: After more reading I realized I can use my timing light to confirm I'm getting spark to each plug. At idle its a nice steady flash. As you raise the engine speed you start to get misses. They show up in the flashing pattern on the light. The flash stumbles as the engine stumbles. It is consistent on all four wires. That tells me the issue is upstream from the plugs and wires.
I've checked all related wiring looking for a possible break, inside the distributor as well, nothing. The rotor is the only thing I haven't replaced. I'll order one on Monday, and new points and condenser just for grins, and see what happens. If that doesn't fix it, maybe it's time for a distributor? No telling how old that one is.
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Nice trick to 'see' the spark action on each cylinder with the T-Light. Have you tried it with the vacuum advance disconnected and line plugged to isolate the distributor timing to watch the spark and running impact? My thinking is that since you said your timing lights 1" from the pointer (retarded), but you are OK with the wires and positioning of the rotor to #1, is the v-advance mechanism involved? Now I have to look it up, but I thought I remembered that 2 o'clock was the correct position for #1. OK, it is the "oiler" that is to be at 2 o'clock, clips at 3 & 9. Also, I'm wondering if that rotor may be worn, or the cap contacts, and at speed can't jump the gap is another culprit I'm guessing about. At least "fuel" is not on the list now. Keep us learning along with you. Thanks.
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Your misfire gets worse with increased rpm? It happens at all four cylinders? Commonality? Points. The new set of points. Does it have a chrome steel helper spring that rides next to the copper strap? If not, your points are floating and unable to make good steady contact. OR. Check the distributor shaft for play, side to side, 3 to 9 and 6 to 12 o'clock. A worn bushing in the distributor body will cause the same problem.
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Next I installed new points. Now it won't start at all, even with ether.
I noticed the distributor cam has a lot of play. Pulling on it you can move it up maybe 1/8th of an inch. No movement side to side, but spinning it clockwise or counter/clockwise, it moves more than I expected. Issue there?
Same for me. I had a garage work over my jeep way back. They idled it but didn't do a "tune up" I drove home but could only hold a very rough 20 mph. I ended up just towing it the rest of the way. Later, it was pointed out by another mechanic (as Scoutpilot mentioned) that the distributor shaft had too much play - this affected the points opening and closing. I didn't know anything about rebuilding, so I replaced the whole distributor and got it to run as now the gap on the points would stay where it was supposed to be. Then, I didn't have a dwell meter nor a timing light.
If there's a fluctuation on the points, you should be able to measure this. I also thought of the "spring" that's included with some brands of the points set. The copper strap is only for electrical connection, the spring is also needed.
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Thanks for the distributor comments. I don't have any side to side movement, 3:00 to 9:00 or 12:00 to 6:00. It will pull in and out a bit, and spin a bit. I'll double check later today.
I ordered a new ignition rotor from my local FLAPS and it is due to arrive in a couple of hours. I'll report after. Fingers crossed!
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Well, no change. New rotor, same issue. Russ, the spring is on the points as required, so that is not it.
I can spin the distributor far enough now that I can line up my white mark with 5 deg BTC using the timing light. Runs even worse then.
I'll order new points and condenser from Walcks tomorrow as what I've bought from them before worked well. If that doesn't fix it, new distributor I guess.
EDIT: In doing some extra reading I realized the coil I picked up from my local shop does not have a resistor built in. I swapped back in my old one, which tested out fine with a meter, and some improvement. I was able to set the timing where it should be and it starts quickly and accelerates smoothly up about 2/3rds of the way through, then starts to spit. Still won't wind out without serious spitting at the top of the rpms. Making progress though!
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Before buying a new distributor, have you considered trying moving the plug wire locations one hole and try timing it again? Just 'wondering' out loud. Good Luck!
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SteveKFL:
I considered that. I rebuilt the engine myself a while back then sold it, so I know clocking was perfect "before" I sold it. No telling what the interim owner did while it was away. See above, just got the timing figured out, I think.
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EDIT: In doing some extra reading I realized the coil I picked up from my local shop does not have a resistor built in. I swapped back in my old one, which tested out fine with a meter, and some improvement. I was able to set the timing where it should be and it starts quickly and accelerates smoothly up about 2/3rds of the way through, then starts to spit. Still won't wind out without serious spitting at the top of the rpms. Making progress though!
Well now. I used an inline resistor at first when I switched from 6V to 12V. This time around I ordered a coil with an internal resistor. It may be cheaper, easier and quicker to get one of those resistors and add it to the new coil.
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Okay, back from a work trip, new points and condenser arrived. Before installing those I made a new jumper from the coil to the points thinking maybe one of the wires was bad. Direct instead of using the terminal block, ran it through the terminal block hole. No change.
Installed the condenser, no change.
Installed the new points, it actually ran a little better but not fixed. Then idling in the garage it slowed down and died. I checked the gap, it had closed some. Tried resetting it and ran into what may be another clue. I cannot get the points to open quite to the suggested .020" gap. Fiddling with the adjustment screw, it just won't do it. It's like the thing (not sure what you call it) on the points that makes contact with the cam is too short. Problem is, it is that way on all the points I've tried. I do have grease on the cam. So is the thing on the points wearing down immediately? Or, is the cam in the distributor worn to the point where it will no longer open the points? ???
If so, back to the new distributor plan. Walcks has them, but only in mechanical advance. Kaiser Willys I think has vacuum advance, but I have to supply the vacuum unit. Thoughts?
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It sounds like you are trying to keep everything stock, but at the risk of being shunned from the 3A page, I will admit that I do like my Omix electronic diz very much. It is going strong after 11 years. I did have to swap in a new module once, but that was "operator failure" on my part. And a new module is about $59 so I always carry a spare in my parts bag just like guys will carry points and condenser. I could not be happier with this dizzy.
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I can't imagine the wear that fast, so I'm guessing maybe the plate the points are mounted on is moving. Could that be because of the vacuum advance, mine is mechanical advance and also is converted to digital, so I can't look at it now. Have you tried isolating by plugging the vacuum line to the advance to eliminate that "action" that may be intermittent? Good to know if you need to buy a new distributor and "use the same advance mechanism". Do you, or someone else, have a good distributor to measure the diameter of the opposing lobs to see if yours are "worn down"? The mystery continues... Thanks for sharing.
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Epilogue: Going into this, we probably all knew this issue would be caused by something simple. And, either I would overlook something obvious, or would have caused the problem by some sort of trivial mistake. Or both.
Well, it was both, or maybe both, you can judge.
I was on the verge of ordering a new distributor this morning, so I had a chat with Carl Walck. We ran through the symptoms and what I'd done so far. He pretty much agreed it was distributor related, but since the points wouldn't gap correctly he suggested I ream out the mount to allow more movement. I did so and am now able to set the points at .020. But, no real change in performance.
But something else he said got me thinking. He asked if the extra stainless spring for the points was in place, as the fact that it would miss at high rev suggested the points opening and closing could not keep up with the accelerating distributor cam. So I took another look at a spare set. Having followed the pattern for the points that were already in the distributor, I had placed the stainless spring OVER the copper spring, not under it. It needed to go under! Under, the pressure on the cam is much stronger. A few seconds of tinkering and I figured out how it locked in, reinstalled them, and bingo! Winner winner chicken dinner! I have full acceleration, no more miss, and the engine runs like it should!
I still had the solid jumper wire from the points to the coil. I'd previously removed the terminal post that feeds through the side of the distributor housing. I reassembled as original, and no spark. I finally just put back the jumper, and the engine is back to normal. I need to fill in around the wire. If anyone has any suggestions of the best way to do so, pipe up please.
I reset the timing slightly, seems perfect now.
It still doesn't want to start cold, but fires right up now when warm. I'll drive it as much as possible over the next week or so to make sure I'm not missing something. But after multiple pretty aggressive accelerations this afternoon, it is holding true.
Now on to 3 different oil leaks and very loose steering. Thanks to everyone for their help!
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Sounds like a good reason to go drive! Congrats!
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Yeah, I love a good ending, and an inexpensive solution too. Congrats! Can you use a small grommet or "liquid electrical tape" to fill the hole and insulate the wire from rubbing the metal? Happy motoring!