My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: toynrnd on August 04, 2019, 01:57:11 PM
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So I am trying to replace the steering box/column in my '51. I read a lot of posts on how to do it, and followed the tips everyone had. I removed the top nut, soaked the splines for 2 weeks with PB Blaster, used a bearing separator as my puller (not tight against the steering tube), and it took 3 days before the steering wheel started moving (tightening the puller/a couple hammer blows to the puller, repeat the next day). When I finally got the wheel nearly off the splines, and made the last pull by hand, the steering wheel, upper bearing, and tube came off. I did not realize the tube was coming off with the wheel.
History - This Jeep sat outside for 5+ years with no horn button before I bought it, so I assume the wheel is rusted to the bearing?
You can hold the tube and the wheel stills turns. I have another steering box and tube (but it looks like the upper bearing is missing) so I could sacrifice this tube. Just looking for some ideas to separate it all and preserve my steering wheel. :-/
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I may be off base here-you may have a different problem- but when I pulled my steering wheel, the threaded part of the puller ( harbor freight gear puller) didn't have enough reach, it bottomed out against the spline portion in the wheel and no longer pushed against the shaft, so I made a longer point for the end with a bolt....maybe your's bottomed out and a little more length will help?
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The wheel is off the shaft, here is what I have, steering shaft still in Jeep, still connected to box:
(http://)
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The steering wheel, upper bearing, and steering tube are out of the Jeep:
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Underside of steering wheel and tube:
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Looking down the wheel:
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The pictures sure help.....so the tube is somehow pressed or forced into the bottom of the steering wheel?
Were you able to steer the jeep? The wheel would turn when it was installed? Would the tube turn with it?
It seems you have a unique problem....
I'm not sure what I would do, that is a nice wheel and you sure want to save it.
If you put the wheel flat against the floor, on a pad or piece of carpet, and hold it firmly, can you GENTLY work the tube back and forth just a little? it may eventually come loose...
I may even try dunking it in a pan of warm or hot water and maybe it'll loosen.....
I might have to run over to storage later and get a good look and some pictures....somehow your wheel looks a little different to me....
Here is mine..
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Yes, the Jeep would steer when I bought it. Right now, you can hold the tube still and the wheel rotates. What separates the wheel from the top bearing, a washer of some sort?
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The top of the bearing is flared a little, so it sits in the tube without sliding down it....maybe that is what we see in the picture of the wheel spline...
And the rest of the bearing may be rusted in place.....
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Does anyone have a photo of the underside of a steering wheel so I know how much room I have to play with if I start cutting the tube to get to the bearing?
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OK I had an idea.....do you have a long dowel or broom handle, maybe even a length of pipe that is larger in diameter than the steering shaft but smaller than the tube, and longer than the tube? Push it into the tube from the far steering box end and it ought to come up against the back of the bearing..tap the dowel/pipe on the floor while holding the tube and steering wheel....I would think you could push the bearing and wheel out from the backside...
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I found my old bearing...
The narrow neck points towards the steering box, there is a snap ring that holds it and the ball bearings in place inside the larger piece...
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Man, I wasn't following this at first....
You're saying after pulling the wheel off, the inner shaft (Tube and Cam) - that has the splines at the top for the steering wheel - is still attached to the jeep and what you pulled off is the steering wheel stuck to the outer tube (Column and Bearing)?
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1955 CJ-5, thank you for taking the time to dig out that old bearing, and for the long pipe idea!
Rus, you are correct, that is my dilemma.
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...you are correct, that is my dilemma.
Ok, I didn't want to post anything in case I was off topic. Those two things shouldn't be stuck together. There should be a gap between the wheel and that column. It shouldn't be making contact.
I would try to stand it inverted (wheel on the ground) and puddle penetrant into that seam around the column. Repeat it over a few hours/days depending on your patience - or how fast that puddle soaks in. I would then want to place a block of wood on the other end of the column and tap it firmly a few times to introduce some shock. More spray. Repeat a few times. But somewhere along this process try and wiggle that column back/forth or circles while standing on the wheel. None of this is aggressive (taps on the block or the wiggling). Since what you're doing is trying to break up rust (I hope it's not something worse, i.e. epoxy) and you don't want to crack your steering wheel (stand close to center hub to minimize torque). With gloves on, you may in between attempts try and twist the column to see if you can get it to spin too.
Prior to pulling a wheel, the outer column is secured at 2 locations (a bracket at the instrument panel and clamped to the upper cover on top of the housing). Having it stick in this way is a new one for me. I presume you've read the article/links on the 3B Page about removal.
http://cj3b.info/Tech/SteeringWheel.html
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Rus, thanks for the info. I did read that link for pulling the steering wheel. I bought the bearing puller and it worked as outlined in that article...sort of.[ch128514]
I�ll try soaking with penetrating oil. I have had my sons stand on the wheel (like you suggest) as I have tried pulling up on the tube - no luck. I wiggled the tube side to side, but I don�t know how far the tube is in to the wheel I didn�t want to break the wheel.
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I measured my spare steering wheel. The backside indent is about 1/2" down to the spline insert. Not sure if your column goes all the way down.
It sounds like maybe the upper bearing may have fused itself to the wheel splines and the column. If you do force it apart, be ready for the ball bearings to go flying.....
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I�ll be ready, thanks. The main thing is getting the wheel off intact.
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I am wrapping my head around this. So, when you turned the wheel to steer the Willys, the outer tube would also turn...right?
The joint between the tube and wheel on the underside of your wheel looks full of something...where I would expect to see a gap. Is it possible the prior owner misunderstood the steering system and filled the gap with epoxy or some other adhesive? If so, maybe you could carve out the adhesive with a sharp knife or chisel?
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athawk11, No sir. The Jeep operated normally before, the tube was bolted at the box and dash and did not rotate. The steering shaft rotated as it should.
Now that the wheel and tube are removed from the Jeep, the wheel rotates (on the bearing) and the tube is stationary.
I assume anything is possible. I�m just not sure why the wheel is stuck to the bearing.
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Still thinking about this....
If you look through the wheel spline at the bearing and turn the wheel while holding the tube steady, do you see the bearing cup turn or is it stationary? The cup is a hand-tight press fit into the tube and shouldn't move, the inner part of the bearing moves with the shaft and keeps it centered...
So if the bearing cup doesn't move, then the lip on it must have worn a groove into the wheel, and maybe that is holding it in place...
I'm interested to learn what you find when you eventually get the wheel off. I sure hope you are able to save the wheel......
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Almost makes me want to pull my wheel real quick and take a look.
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There's a spring under there, or at least there should be. The steering wheel pushes down on the spring, which holds the bearing in place. If everything is there, the steering wheel should not be able to get that far down, or the outer tube that far up.
It also seems to me that the tube is normally bigger than the opening in the bottom of the wheel. If the tube somehow worked its way in there, it would be a tight fit.
Here's a thought - if it got so far that the steel hub or the steel spokes rubbed on the top of the tube, the tube may have gotten flared. As it gradually became flared, it wore clearance for the flare inside the wheel, and now the end of the tube is bigger than the hole it needs to come out of. Reaching? Maybe. BW
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I had to go take a look. The tube measures 1.5 inches on the outside, and the hole in the bottom of an original steering wheel measured out at 1.540 inches or thereabouts. BW
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Thank you for the input everyone.� I worked on this thing for an hour and a half last night...
The bearing cup was rotating inside the tube.
I used a 1-1/2" wood dowel to try and knock the cup, bearing and wheel off the tube, no luck.
I cut the tube off near the wheel and started cutting things with a Dremel tool.� A portion of the cup, the spring, and the ball bearings are out. Whew!
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Getting there...
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Thank you for the input everyone.� I worked on this thing for an hour and a half last night...
The bearing cup was rotating inside the tube.
I used a 1-1/2" wood dowel to try and knock the cup, bearing and wheel off the tube, no luck.
I cut the tube off near the wheel and started cutting things with a Dremel tool.� A portion of the cup, the spring, and the ball bearings are out. Whew!
What a mess! I'm looking at this small picture trying to understand what I'm seeing. The outer column and the inner Tube and Cam should only have air in between. What are we looking at here? What is the material you ended up cutting through?
The second image looks awfully familiar.
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Isn't that interesting....like Rus I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking at...
I'm curious about the apparent thick wall of the steering tube in the picture in post #24...is that some sort of packing material?
More will be revealed!
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Sorry for not clarifying, the picture in post #24 is the steering tube and the bearing cup. The material between us part of the wood dowel I tried hammering the bearing, cup, and wheel off the tube with. The dowel got hammered into the cup, so part of the wood went to the center of the cup, and part of the wood filled the space between the cup and tube. When I cut the tube, the dowel was still wedged in there, so I cut through all of it. When the wheel was free oof the tube, the wood from the center of the cup fell out but the rest stayed put and I prayed it out with a screwdriver. Sorry for the long winded explanation. I�m trying to make sure I give all the details.[ch128578]
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I'm even more mystified.
Picture in Post #25. I assume the outer cut steel wall is the outer tube...that spun freely on the wheel prior to disassembly.
The inner wall is the bearing cup...? If so, I'm still not understanding what is holding the tube to the wheel....?
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Yes, I�m not not understanding at all either. When I went to remove the wheel, the bearing press I was using as my wheel puller was not contacting the tube. It would rotate with the wheel. Perhaps when i has to reset my puller to get that last little bit of the wheel off the splines a caught the tube and jammed it into the underside of the wheel? I�m hoping to get some more garage time to finish the removal before vacation.[ch129310]
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I'm back! After a week of vacation, a week of catching up at work, and a forum upgrade...the results are in (sort of). After another couple hours of work, in the end I had to cut the tube off. I got as much tube metal as I could from inside the wheel, and ground it flush with the bottom side of the steering wheel metal hub.
Picture 1: steering tube cut off. I knicked the underside of my steering wheel a couple times with the Dremel tool. :(
Picture 2: The leftovers from the tube, the spring, the bearing cup, etc.
Picture 3: A little closer look
Picture 4: Cleaned up(?)
Picture 5: My replacement column with the remnants of a steering wheel still on it.
Picture 6: My guess is my original steering tube somehow made its way up to the small groove in the steering wheel hub and flared over it, locking it on the steering wheel. Who knows?
Picture 7: Steering wheel hub off my replacement column.
Picture 8: Replacement column needs a little cleaning up.
New bearings, cup, seals, etc. arrived today from Kaiser Willys. Hopefully I can get some garage time in this weekend.
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Thanks for updating and I'm glad you finally got it apart....you are now an expert on steering wheel removal! :)
Randy
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Amazing!
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Got some time to work on the steering again today. And just when you thought it could not get any stranger...check this out.
Picture 1: The steering shaft in my other column is a bit ragged near the end, close to where the upper bearing will ride.
Picture 2: I pulled the steering shaft out of my original steering box, and find this tube/dowel/whatever sticking up.
Picture 3: It extends down through the box...
Picture 4: Past the lower bearing...
Picture 5: And through the plug at the end of the steering box. What kind of voodoo is this? ??? Any thoughts?
Picture 6: At least my original steering shaft is in good shape.
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That shaft sticking up is the "Cover And Tube" found in GROUP 23-02 - STEERING GEAR ASSEMBLY.
It's function is to give you a conduit for the horn wire to exit out the bottom to connect the horn button to the horn while keeping the gear oil inside the housing. That cap on the bottom should seal and the tube is long enough to be above the top level of the lubricant.
Dave shows how to make one of these:
https://cj3apage.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg34344#msg34344
It can be tapped out from the inside, but if it's not leaking it could be left alone.