My Willys 3A and 3B Community

3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: bretto on January 02, 2015, 10:41:29 AM

Title: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 02, 2015, 10:41:29 AM: I have in my possession, set of door frames that I thought were going to be useful on my M38.ï¿½ After some research, I believe these frames are the early 3a frames.ï¿½ I do realize that these are not fold-able as the M38's were but have read that the 3a frames were a suitable substitute.ï¿½ The only measurement I was able to really say is a difference between these and the M38 is the overall height.ï¿½ There is a difference of an inch, with the M38's being 1" taller at 37".ï¿½ I might to weld in 1" of rod on each side and make them taller.ï¿½ I'm wondering if anyone on this board has the earlier frames and could tape the overall height and see if they come in at about 36".ï¿½ Another thought I have is that the bottoms may go longer at the bottoms of the M38 and not at the tops, so adding 1" at the tops could be the wrong way to go.ï¿½ Or just leave them alone and use them as is.ï¿½ Or maybe someone here wants to buy these?

As I have researched, the earlier frames had the diagonal handle/brace above the door handle and then below the handle on the later frames, which allowed for a larger window.

Here is a of the ones I have.ï¿½ I did have to cut the hinge off the tops as they were mangled.
(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/imagejpg1_zps96da79fc.jpg)

Here is one I found online that says its an early CJ3a.
(http://www.cj3a.info/reference/cj3aearly.jpg)

Here is another pic of mine before the canvas was pulled off.ï¿½ The rigid window frames are kinda cool.
(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/Non-collapsibleM38doorframe_zpsf5668a45-1.jpg)

Here is a M38 frame.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/romski123/m38%20door%20frames/862743_10151372791058602_767180585_n-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Bob W on January 02, 2015, 09:55:54 PM: A lot of measurements will be different just depending upon how these door frames have been bent over the years. I have early 3A, late 3A, aftermarket 3A, and M38 folding frames here. I can get some measurements tomorrow.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 02, 2015, 11:06:52 PM: Thanks Bob, in fact yours is a pic I found on the G503 page, I'm sue you recognized it.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Bob W on January 03, 2015, 09:53:11 AM: These door frames are all slightly different, probably years of rough treatment. I tried to measure the frame, on some the canvas extends past the frame a lot. M38 and early 3A is 36-1/4", aftermarket is 36-3/4", 3A late is 37". I think they should all be the same. Maybe around 36-1/2"??? I will post a photo later.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 03, 2015, 10:10:29 AM: I thought so.

My other dilemma is the previous owner yanked off the upper door mounts on windshield. And I have no hinge on the doors to help me point where they should go. If I had one or the other I could use them for emergence. I will have to fab the mounts up but the problem is, I have no reference where they would go and from looking at pictures the mounts are at an angle in comparison to the window frame. Common sense would tell me that they should point directly at the lower mount's hole in order to hang any door and have it swing properly. Can anyone confirm this? And possibly get me a measurement of where they mount.

I would suspect most door mounts and things of this nature have to be somewhat tailored after all is set in place The 3/8 rod these are built from is just of the verge of being inadequate for structure but on the other side, just small enough to allow fudging if needed.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: athawk11 on January 03, 2015, 11:33:22 AM: Bretto,

I donï¿½t know if this helps at allï¿½I measured my M38 door in the same approximate location in Bobï¿½s photo. I got 36 3/8ï¿½.

You can probably fab up a couple door sockets. Some thick wall tubing, some flat stock and a couple minutes with your welder is all you need. Iï¿½m guessing the gauge to be 10gï¿½.or maybe 3/32ï¿½ steel.

Here is a close-up of the passenger side socketï¿½

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/DoorsocketTop_zps9602faa7.jpg)

This measurement is from the top of the horizontal tube where the wiper motors mountï¿½

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/Doorsockettopmeasurement_zpsc92fa045.jpg)

Tim
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Bob W on January 03, 2015, 11:37:07 AM: I forgot to mention that even left side to right side on the same pair of frames is a different measurement.

(http://www.cj3a.info/reference/m38doortalla.jpg)

(http://www.cj3a.info/reference/m38doortallb.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 03, 2015, 12:46:56 PM: Thanks gents. The angles of the mounts is what is going to kill me. Does it appear that they point right at the lower sockets?
Same issue on the door pins. I'm wondering if they come straight out from the doors or are they clocked inward a bit.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 03, 2015, 12:56:48 PM: This is what I mean by is the hinge pin in line or * a bit inward.
(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/Misc/door_zps7ff31044.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: athawk11 on January 03, 2015, 03:31:50 PM: Mine seem to pitch inward, but I don't know if this is from abuse or bending to achieve a custom fit. Maybe Bob can confirm...

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/882909efb9c37408b3503c0034d0f655_zps35848a27.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Bob W on January 03, 2015, 03:59:06 PM: All my upper hinge pins are relatively parallel to the door frame as seen in the upper example here..
(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/Misc/door_zps7ff31044.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on January 03, 2015, 06:32:28 PM: The upper hinge on my repro door frames are also parallel with the frame..I did have to tweak the upper hinge a bit so the door frame did not rub against the top frame. Both doors needed a small adjustment..

Do you have the top frame yet?
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 03, 2015, 08:36:07 PM: Yep I have a top and side curtains on mine. The top on a M38 is a totally different set up compared to the 3A.
Thanks for all the reference pictures. Can one of you confirm that the upper hinge point aims directly at the lower?
You guys rock.
Once I get all this knocked out, I plan on making another set of frames from scratch just to have 2 then making my own canvas covers. The door frame set I got had some old covers with the metal window rings. Do you guys think there is any value in those? I don't plan on using them, I just plan on sewing in windows like the rest of my coverings.
Brett
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on January 03, 2015, 08:59:14 PM: This is not the greatest picture.

I'd say the upper and lower hinge points are parallel, but not perfectly aligned...A rod set in one would not plug directly into the other...

Does this help? Tough to get a really informative picture!
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Bob W on January 03, 2015, 09:16:25 PM: Those metal window frames do have value!!! They were used on CJ-2A, early CJ-3A and CJ-V35/U.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 05, 2015, 11:43:40 AM: Ok so I supposedly have some upper mounts on the way. I think if I were able to get a few measurements from a few samples and take an average, I should be able to mount them exactly where they should go.

1 yellow-the angle between the window frame and the barrel of the mount.

2 orange-the distance between the window frame straight out to the outside edge of the barrel.

3 red-the distance to the bottom of the mount to the top of the horizontal bar where the wipers would mount.

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/Misc/doormount_zps8821fbda.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Bob W on January 06, 2015, 06:47:52 AM: I grabbed a tape measure and headed for the barn to measure an M-38. The red dimension centered on the windshield frame is 10-1/2". Couldn't get the orange dimension because the end of the tape measure hits on the rubber. I don't have any good idea on measuring the angle. I'm thinking if the top pivot is inline with the bottom pivot it will work good.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 06, 2015, 08:25:18 AM: I have been told by a friend that on his M38, the welded on hinge's leading flat front edge is right inline with the rope channels leading front edge. Not the barrel, the flat portion. If that is true on all rigs, this would automatically set the dimension for both orange and yellow, leaving only red to worry about. Make sense?
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: athawk11 on January 06, 2015, 10:52:01 AM: I got the same measurement for red. 10 1/2". Pictured earlier in this thread.

I'm not sure I follow the placement instructions from your friend. I don't know if it helps, but here is an outside view of the doors installed.

Tim

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/WillysWinterTop.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: athawk11 on January 06, 2015, 10:57:10 AM: Since you're getting an old original set, I'm almost thinking that the leading edge of the top door socket will help set the correct angle.

Tim
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on January 06, 2015, 01:26:13 PM: Maybe this will help...keep in mind this is a 3a so maybe all bets are off....

The one picture shows the front edge of the door bracket aligned with the front edge of the canvas channel flange....

Are the dimples still there where the spot welds may have been?
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 06, 2015, 01:56:34 PM: I'm getting new hinge brackets that have been made up by Midwest Military.
Please excuse my rudimentary drawing but this is the edge I was talking about. If I get these placed where they are supposed to be, the placement of the door pins on the door frames should be easy to figure out.

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/Misc/hingedraw_zpsd67a0169.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 06, 2015, 02:06:40 PM: Randy, I posted this during and after your post. You are the #2 saying those edges line up. I'm just going to worry about the up and down measurement. I'm confident that will get that mount where it should be. There is no dimples. In fact when I did my restore a while back, the previous owner just hacked it and the section of rope channel behind it out, leaving a gap. I filled it with a piece of metal. Its all smooth and no evidence of anything was ever there.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Bob W on January 06, 2015, 03:27:19 PM: Looked at the M38 again and the front of the bracket lines up with the channel.
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 10, 2015, 07:09:01 PM: OK guys, got my hinge brackets and set them up this way and that way and I think I'm pretty sure where I'm going to place them.
Can I be a pesky fly and ask if I can get someone to measure from the bottom leading edge point of the bracket to the top of the cross bar of the windshield. Trying to measure from the center and get it at 10.5 is hard as its hard to eyeball. If I get a ruler in there, I can get a solid measurement from the that bar to the bottom leading point of the bracket. A tape is a bit more difficult it seems. It still still be close to 10.5 "

Thanks,
Brett
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Ryan_M on January 11, 2015, 08:08:26 AM: Is this the measurement you are looking for? I get 10-7/16". This is a '51 3A windshield. My only M38 windshield is out getting sandblasted.

(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/Misc%20Junk/20150111_081733_zps71a71483.jpg)

(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/Misc%20Junk/20150111_081746_zps987e95e1.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 11, 2015, 10:42:29 AM: YEP!
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on January 18, 2015, 02:56:54 PM: Just because it's raining and I'm bored, I measured both sides of my windshield.....

10 3/8" on the drivers side, and 10 1/2" on the passengers side....

So Ryan's is right in the middle.....
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 20, 2015, 11:14:50 AM: From all that have contributed, it looks like there was a little tolerance in the hinge positions.
I got measurements from 10 5/16" to 10 1/2". Think I will just attach them at 10.5 and call it good.
Had to pay $15 a piece :o Not like me to buy something so pricey. Just haven't had time to work on it. Working on my son's gokart it eating shop time ;D
Brett
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: RICKG on January 20, 2015, 03:12:09 PM: Ya gotta be good at 10.5", you remember even my dims were +- 1/4". With the hinges you can determine the pin locs.ï¿½ If ya don't have the skins built by next time we meet we can make a fullsize template from mine.ï¿½ Glad the boy's go kart project is coming along-you gotta build a mini M38 body for it!!
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 23, 2015, 01:11:02 PM: I have got hinges on. They don't have the cool 4 spot weld dimples but they are solid. Thanks for all your help. Now on with the door project.........

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4961_zpsswvy78jh.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4964_zps3ltrwrtc.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4972_zpsqwo0ymoi.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4965_zpsiu3ar9xx.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: athawk11 on January 23, 2015, 01:41:22 PM: Bretto,

Those look great. Nice plug welds.

If you want to give it the official look with the 4 little dimples, you could fake us out by drilling 4 small 1/6" holes. No one would ever know. ;)

Tim
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on January 24, 2015, 08:33:04 PM: Sometimes my ambition gets ahead of me. "This will only take a few hours". Started at 8am just got done at 6pm. Had to tweak the heck out of the frames this way and that before I got them just right. I don't really see how anyone or company can make certain parts (door frames). Too many factors to be lucky enough to just have them fit right in. I think they fit pretty good now. I was able to use my new bender for the 1st time in making new upper hinge pins. This is as good as its going to get in my garage.

Ready for canvas......I think.

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4987_zpsumcdlwkl.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4988_zpsog95jdue.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4984_zpsds7boda8.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4992_zpsuu0jqw3j.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4986_zpswnfnhk0c.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4990_zpsfvmjudpr.jpg)

Parts waiting to be installed.
(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_4989_zpsak4u1fmc.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on January 24, 2015, 09:49:08 PM: Those look great!!

I had to do some considerable "tweaking" to the frames I bought from Beachwood....

I really think they were designed to allow fitting(bending) to each individual jeep, as they all would have been a little different.

Nicely done!
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on March 01, 2015, 06:34:42 PM: Bent me out another set of frames copied from the ones I got.

I kind of did this just to see how hard it may be and to use my bender. It wasn't too bad. The hardest part was actually making the bracket the handles attaches to. I wish I had another CJ around to see how well these would fit. From twisted window frames, bent mounts, crooked tubs....etc, I'm sure, across the board, there would have to be some tweaking done from one Jeep to the next. It's really not that hard to bend to fit though.

I think I could bust out a few more someone was interested. One would have to supply their own handles and escutcheons. I got mine from Midwest Military. I don't have the means to make those plates. I would be able muddle thru making handles but don't really want to.

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_5034_zpslvutpsj5.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_5037_zpss8u0djvh.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_5035_zps5palxuli.jpg)

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_5039_zpsicxxf2p5.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on April 04, 2015, 11:09:54 PM: Here's the progress thus far. Instead of using the pricey common sense fasteners, I opted to just use some snaps. I now have to work on the handle detail.
There is a great sense of accomplishment in doing stuff yourself but with that, let it be know that the price you pay for someone else making these door skins is a bargain.

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5040_zpsv9ynrzte.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5043_zpsbaifq84d.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5045_zpstnmqojc9.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5057_zpsv0wledqp.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5107_zpsfiqtgaps.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5108_zpslap5rb2g.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5111_zpsk1oqjly9.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5112_zps2dt5nbdj.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5113_zpsgafts501.sized.jpg)[/b]
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: Kirkski on April 07, 2015, 10:37:12 AM: Really nice work
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: athawk11 on April 07, 2015, 10:51:07 AM: You've done some very nice work there. Of course, I would expect nothing less from you at this point. :)

Beautiful!

Tim
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: bretto on April 18, 2015, 09:36:28 PM: Doors project completed.
Although they look good, I have to admit, I am not a big fan of them as it really closes things up. There are a lot of blind spots and driving with them on in today' traffic is an adventure. No wind is nice but I was actually getting hot and wish I had a vent of sorts. Its the season though to having them off, just had to try them out.

Here are some pics of the handles. I ended up not using the handles I bought from MWM and used stock ones (on the exterior), made the interior ones and the striker plates. I still don't know how the the stock set-up ever works. Its seems everything is too thick for the stock distance between the handles. By the time I had all the plates on and the fabric, there was no way that pin was going to reach between the handles. I also welded about a 3/4" of tube to the door frame bracket as a bushing for the handle connection. I then used carriage bolt for the connecting pin, that's the head you see on the exterior. Then I have fiber washers between everything, its really smooth and firm.

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5115_zpso99gbwsu.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5118_zpspwvdkwy5.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5119_zpsm4z6hjif.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5121_zpstc3fbwgf.sized.jpg)

(http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album156/IMG_5125_zpsg5k5ho9l.sized.jpg)
Title: Re: Door measurement
Post by: PhilipS on April 04, 2018, 10:15:15 PM: I am having a devil of a time finding doors frames for my M38. I was wondering if someone out there could trace a left and right door frame on a large piece of paper and send it to me so I could maybe make my own. i some one would do this let me know and I will give you my address. Much thanks.