My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: turkehunt on February 19, 2012, 03:55:47 PM
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I just rebuilt my steering column/ steering box/new pitman arm /new bellcrank :oMy DRAGLINK & Steering box and steering shaft were not original they were off a tractor or something :o the drag link had another section welded onto it to make it about 4in. longer :-?I had another willys for parts so I rebuilt those original parts and am ready to install the draglink to the bellcrank I know which end is for bellcrank and which end is for pitman arm BUT WHAT IF someone has switched the locations of the components in the drag link [ I rebuilt the drag link with a kit from Walcks because springs were broke and parts warn in the old one] As you all know the drag link is different on each end from the front/bellcrank end it is 8in.to where it starts the bend / on the back pitman arm end it is 10 in. to where it starts to bend>this is how mine came off & I plan to install it the same but just want to confirm :-/Thanks for your help this sight is the greatest !!!!
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Does this help? Short straight section towards steering box, longer straight section towards front.
(http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab191/rocketeer_2010/Jeep/SteeringConnectingRod.jpg)
Larry
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Thanks Larry Looks like mine was on backwards then !
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I need to follow up with additional questions. �I too am rebuilding the steering box and drag link. �I found that my drag link has the longer straight section to the steering box, just like Turks. �I plan on changing it to match Rocketeers recommendation, but that brought up new questions. �
I have Sector shaft and drag link parts coming from Walck's. �On the drag link, the end retainer plugs are two different sizes. �In the parts manual, they list one as small and one as large. �I am guessing that the large plug will go to the bell crank and small plug to the pitman arm. �Correct? �Additionally, will the large vs small plug be obvious by looking at them?
One other questions regarding the drag link direction. �If the large and small plugs are placed in the right position, does it make a big difference as to the direction the drag link faces? �
I only ask this question because when I utimately switch directions, my zerk fitting at the pitman arm will be pointing upward, making it more difficult to grease.
Tim
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Hi Tim,
My drag link is also "long end to the rear" and it fit and works just fine. Can't imagine it would make a bit of difference as the openings in each end for attachments is the same. They do supply two thicknesses of caps but as I recall, they send you two of each size so that you can determine the best fit when you assemble. As you get wear, you may go with the thicker cap so that the cotter pin still aligns correctly with the grooves in the cap. And they are noticeably different thicknesses. Like you, I also wanted to position the grease zerk for easy access and so that I would be more inclined to see it and use it. As I write this, I have that burning fear that all I have told you is wrong - I guess we'll find out together! One thing is for sure...assemble all of the link parts as in the drawing very carefully. Some items are in different order on each end and I found it isn't terribly intuitive if you attempt without the drawing.
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I would only add that Willys designed it that way for a reason so why not follow their method.
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You guys that have the long end at the back, which way does the grease zerk face at that end? Up?
Larry
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Hi Larry,
I put a new (Walcks) drag link on a year or more ago. The grease zerk on the rear points down like in the diagram. The front one points towards the tire, sort of down but mostly just out to the side. If the link were reversed, the zerk on the rear would be pointing up and would be kind of hard to get to. Long story short...with the link "long section to the rear" the zerks present just like in the picture. Makes me wonder if somewhere along the way the links were drilled for the zerks in the reverse??? Anyway, it seemed to make sense when installing to have the zerks more accessible rather than less.
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All things being equal, and if there are no clearance issues, then I would install it with the rear zerk pointing down. If there's one thing we've learned over the years it's that Willys manual illustrations are not infallible, especially when talking about repro parts. �;)
Larry
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Thanks Tom. �I didn't notice the assembly order of internals was different until you mentioned it.
So, the balls on the pitman and bell crank are equal in size? I inspected the balls for roundness, but didn't really pay attention if size of ball is different. �When the parts manual mentioned large and small cap, I thought they ment the size of the concave face that sits against the balls on the pitman and crank. �
I'm the last one to question the wisdom of either Rocket or Carl. �I'm inclined to install it as Rocketeer descibes. �Perhaps it was done this way to reduce wear on the pitman and bell crank balls?? �I don't know. �It just seems od that the zerk would point upward. �Willys engineers made it pretty darn easy to find and grease the fittings. �(there must be 80 of 'em). � Perhaps my drag link is a repro/replacement and someone, some where, got confused and started drilling in the wrong place??
I'm pretty excited to get my new parts. �The sloppy steering is a bit annoying.
Tim
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Tim,
Larry got me thinking about this so I went out and measured my new drag link and the old one. �Both are 25 1/2 inch length overall. �On the old rod the bends start at 7 1/2 inches and 9 1/2 inches from the ends. �The longer end (9 1/2) is the one that will give me the zerk in the downward position at the pitman arm. �Oddly, the front zerk then points towards the F. diff, instead of out towards the tire. �
On the new rod, the bends both start at the 10 inch point. �When I put the end with the zerk pointing down at the Pitman arm, the front zerk points out towards the tire. �Clearly both rods bent at different points and drilled differently for the zerks. �No doubt a distinction without a difference.
Forgot your question...I think both cup sizes are the same. �The differences are regarding the thickness of the caps so that you can adjust properly to have the cotter pins line up as they wear. �Adjust pretty snug and then back off only about a 1/4 turn.
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Very interesting. �Maybe the bends are for achieving clearance and nothing more. �Now I want my zerk down!! �
I feel like my wife....unable to make a decision. ;D
Tim
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I went out and looked at my CJ3 and the front zerk is pointed toward the center and the rear zerk is pointed to the ground. Also, the bend in the link goes from the lower steering box arm ball end to the higher bell crank ball end.
The only reason I can see for having the long end to the front is to clear the axle. If the link doesn't hit the axle housing at full bounce then it should work, BUT, I think the factory intended the long end to the front because of interference with the axle.
I also looked at my CJ2 parts Jeep and the front zerk points toward the left wheel. The photo shows the CJ3 link with the front zerk towards the wheel. So, at some point Willys must have changed the part. Then the Reproduction people changed the ends to the same length to the bend.
It appears as long as you have the ball plates and spring adjustment system correctly assembled and nothing interferes with anything it's your choice which end is to the front.
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The original link had two different size caps on the ends. I'd be interested to know if the repros do or are they both the same size now.
Larry
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I didn't look at that Larry, nor did I remove the link and measure the ball ends. I still believe Willys designed it for a reason and a person has to be careful when changing things around.
As an example, I worked for an International truck dealer in the past and I was given the job to rebuild a rear differential. In the process of doing so I had some difficulty getting a correct assembly and told the service manager what I found and I may have to modify or remake a part. He said, "well, it's odd that the International parts that have worked for years won't work now, go find out what your doing wrong". I went back and checked everything and found out I had misinterpreted the instructions and assembly procedures. The manager and I were good friends and I had no problem going back to him and admitting my error. He smiled and said, " I knew you would figure it out and saw no reason to explain it to you".
Sometimes things are not as we see them at first and need more thought and inspection.
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Forgot your question...I think both cup sizes are the same. �The differences are regarding the thickness of the caps so that you can adjust properly to have the cotter pins line up as they wear. �Adjust pretty snug and then back off only about a 1/4 turn.
Thanks Tom.
Larry,
Sounds like Tom's kit included the two different sizes.
I get my stuff from Walcks on Monday. �I'll let you know what they send.
Tim
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Rocketeer had some interest in the contents of a Drag Link repair kit. �This is what is included when ordering from Walcks.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/DragLinkRepairKit.jpg)
There are not two sizes of end caps in this kit.
Also, I believe I know how the parts are assembled, but the drawing of the Willys parts manual 'drag link' �(above post) does not show 3 of the concave ball seats that are on the left in my photo. �It only pictures 2.
Tim
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Are all three the same thickness?
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Flip over the two end plugs and see if one is concave.
Larry
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One of the end caps is concave. The other is flat faced. All three ball seats are the same size and thickness. After taking my link apart, the old set has the exact same combination of parts as the new set. The springs in the new set are taller. Old springs possibly sprung? Perhaps that's why my drag link was sloppy.
One note: The new caps will not thread fully into the drag link ends. They thread in until there is about 1/8" of cap hanging out the end. (No other parts installed to stop the full insertion) The best I can tell is the new caps aren't machined very clean. My old caps are the same size as the new set (height wise), and thread easily all the way in and well past the edge of the link.
Tim
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If the new caps don't thread all the way in I'd use the old caps, providing the concave one isn't worn too much.
Larry
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I agree with Larry, use the old caps if you have to. The rebuild kit I received from Walck's had the same issue, but I was able to clean up the threads and use the new caps. Make sure the caps go into the drag link and make a snug fit. Prior to installing the rebuild kit in the drag link and a new bushing in the front arm, my steering wheel would turn almost a 1/4 turn both ways before the front wheels would move. After the rebuild, the little Jeep is ready for a slalom course! ;D
Then again, maybe not...........but the steering is nice and tight! ;)
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I was thinking the same thing, Larry. My old concave end cap looks pretty good. I may try to clean up the new cap as Mac had to do.
I may also throw Walcks a line. That's a good operation. I bet they would want to know that the drag link kits aren't quite right.
Mac, I have the new sector shaft sleeves being machined. I will be able to rebuild the steering box tonight. My bell crank doesn't have any up and down movement, so just a clean up of the steering box and drag link for me. Hopefully the Datona 500 is in my little Jeeps' future.
I wonder if I'm going to have to re-adjust my toe in once I'm all back together?
Tim
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I wonder if I'm going to have to re-adjust my toe in once I'm all back together?
Tim
I don't think you'll have to if you haven't had the tierods disassembled but it's worth checking.
Larry
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Thanks Larry.
By the way, I really enjoyed your web page.
Tim
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Thank you. It's been a long time since I updated it. I have to decide if I want to go through all that or just retire it. �:-/
Larry
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Retire!?!?!? :o There is too much good information to retire it! Besides, it is a great story!
Do the world a favor and keep it going!
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Rocketeer had some interest in the contents of a Drag Link repair kit. �This is what is included when ordering from Walcks.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/DragLinkRepairKit.jpg)
There are not two sizes of end caps in this kit.
Also, I believe I know how the parts are assembled, but the drawing of the Willys parts manual 'drag link' �(above post) does not show 3 of the concave ball seats that are on the left in my photo. �It only pictures 2.
Tim
Hey Tim,
Did you ever figure out what the deal is with the 3rd concave ball seat? I just opened up my shipment from Walck's and it looks just like your picture.
Regards,
-John
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John,
Proper function of the drag link will require all three ball seats. From what I have read, the photos is the parts manual are sometimes missing key information.
As Tom mentions in this post, when you dis-assemble your old link, pay close attention to the order. The parts are not the same on both sides.
Best of luck,
Tim
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This is my first attempt in posting about my 1949 CJ3A. I have bought a steering connecting rod kit from KaiserWillys. When I disassembled my jeep I found that the previous owner had put spacers and washers to make it work and now I have no idea how the original parts should be. Looking at the service manual I am confused by the picture and the instructions. I have scrolled through many of the posts and am still not clear. Can anyone help me? Jon
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Hi Jon,
Welcome to the 3A Page.� It's been a while since I've assembled a drag link, so hopefully I'm not pointing you in the wrong direction.
This is a pretty good additional thread describing the challenges.� At some point, we all came to the consensus that Willys Overland forgot to draw in one of the ball seats in the first drawing.� You can see the improved drawing (2nd drawing) that shows the additional ball seat. (listed as #3 in the first drawing and �C� in the second drawing...on the right side of the drawing)
http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/3Ayabb26/YaBB.pl?num=1455985447/8
This is the contents of the kits that vendors are offering�
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2018/02/14/drag-link-kit.jpg)
Using the second more accurate drawing, the bell-crank ball will fit between the B and C in the drawing.� The steering arm ball�or Pitman arm ball will fit between the C and C in the drawing.� Hope this helps.
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Thank you for your help. I bought the kit and it had 4 ball seats which confused me. Your response was very helpful. You reference a drawing but I don't know how to pull it up, nor have I figured out how to access 3rd party hosting in photo bucket.
I would like to post a photo but I don't know how to do that yet either.
My next question will be about the Ross steering box. I opened the box, cleaned out all the grease, removed the zerk fitting, and have a plug for the filler hole. Now that it is all cleaned out, it appears that there is a ball bearing missing. Or should there be a gap about the size of one ball bearing in the race?
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to bring up the drawing just click on the link Tim provided, I did and it came right up.
Now for the steering box the ball bearings you speak of are for the steering wheel shaft. It runs from the box up to the steering wheel. You can purchase the kit to rebuild the box. It will contain the 2 bronze bushings where the steering arm that connects to the drag link is located. If the the steering arm has any play or leaks these bushings need to be replaced. The ball bearings you speak of are located at the top and bottom of the worm gear that runs up to the steering wheel. you will also need the kit to rebuild this if you are missing a ball. probably worn out anyway. It will have the bearings and the shims to set this up.
I found while doing my Willys if I googled or searched the topic of what I was working on I could find plenty of videos, drawings, and parts to accomplish this. Since these parts are part of the steering, it is very important that these parts be set up properly for obvious reasons. Kaiser Willys has a instruction video on this and many other things you will run across. Good luck.
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Here is the drawing. I borrowed this from Willys M Jeeps. They were nice enough to draw in the pitman arm and bell crank balls...
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2018/02/17/IMG_2080.jpg)
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Thank you for the confirmation. After reading a number of posts, I realized that often the reproduction parts have small differences than the originals. One must be intuitive in putting it back together.
I just pulled the upper bearings out of my Ross steering box. I discovered the steering tube and spiral gear is bent and there are 3 ball bearings missing. So I'm going to order the parts. Who knows what else the previous owner has done? Having you as a resource has lowered my anxiety level. Thank you.
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I have found that every Ross box I've opened are short a couple of bearings. I think that's factory.