My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: CJPilot on April 26, 2012, 04:31:31 PM
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Did original seats have coil springs in the seat cushions? �My Jeep did not come with any seats. �I�d like to get something that looks and performs like the original. �All I have found online is foam cushions with out coil springs. �If they did originally come with springs, anybody know were to buy them with the springs?
Thanks, � Steve
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Original CJ-3A seats had "zig-zag" springs. They were metal springs formed in a connected S pattern, instead of coils.
I think the original type springs feel much better than foam replacements. Usually the foam is too stiff so it feels like sitting on a rock and I end up looking at the top of the windshield frame instead of the glass. I have been wanting to try using 2 layers of foam, with more dense on the bottom and less dense on top but haven't found the time yet. I think that may be a solution.
As far as I know the original type springs are not available.
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Here's a couple pics of original springs. These particular seats have a "newer" canvas cover over the top of the original one but the springs are original.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/SANY8492.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/SANY8498.jpg)
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I did the dual foam thing, it works pretty well. i went to an apholstry shop and they helped me pick out two different durometers of foam. I used a 3 inch heavy foam on the bottom and a 2 inch light foam on top. Its really pretty comfortable.
Todd
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I'll take a wild guess... �;D��the original seat cushions hardly ever go up for sale. �You have to buy a jeep in better shape then the one your working on to get the original parts.
How about seats for a CJ5 on CJ3A frames? Somebody must make CJ5 seats with springs.
Seems funny, �I have an old 1952 MG that they only made 17,000 of and you can get the seat cushion with springs, and leather cover in 3 or 4 different colors from a couple of different suppliers
Steve
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I have a plywood bottom with foam cushions. I went to the upholstery shop and pick some foam that felt good when I sat on it and had him make the seats and backs using that foam. I'm sure it's not as good as the original but it feels ok to me.
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I'll take a wild guess... �;D��the original seat cushions hardly ever go up for sale. �You have to buy a jeep in better shape then the one your working on to get the original parts.
How about seats for a CJ5 on CJ3A frames? Somebody must make CJ5 seats with springs.
Steve
Yup, most parts jeeps only have seat frames if they have any seating at all. Those springs rust and get tossed.
There was a guy working on reproducing the old style springs for the MB GPW crowd, but I haven't heard anything from him lately....You may be able to build your own if you can buy the zig zag spring material from an upholstering supplier. Gonna need some jute padding too, or some horsehair substitute.
Problem with the CJ5 seats is they are too thick to fit many of us bigger guys behind the wheel. If you are skinny you might have room enough for an aftermarket CJ5 seat with a custom mount. I have some low back Ford buckets on cut down 3A frames in Pintojeep, they work OK....but are obviously not stockers.
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Did original seats have coil springs in the seat cushions? �My Jeep did not come with any seats. �I�d like to get something that looks and performs like the original. �All I have found online is foam cushions with out coil springs. �If they did originally come with springs, anybody know were to buy them with the springs?
Thanks, � Steve
These are from a 2A so not sure if the are exactly the same but -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/willys-cj2a-cj3a-seat-pans-and-springs-/180874389636?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a1cf42884
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CJ-2A bottom springs are not as thick as CJ-3A bottom springs. Those on eBay have broken springs which are impossible to repair. I have combined parts from several seats into one using the good spring segments but it's really a chore.
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I�m a sucker for doing things that are hard or �impossible� in some eyes. �If I can find some springs as examples or get some measurements of original springs I�d be game to try and make up a set of reproductions of the seat springs. �I have found a source for zig zag springs in 3 different gauges. �The solid wire frame shouldn�t be too hard to come up with. �I have not been able to locate any of the long spiral compression type spring that goes around and across the pan. �Of course what I have found is pictures on the internet so maybe it would be different once I have started down the path of trying to put it all together. �Any thoughts? �
Steve
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I could not locate a compression spring that long so I used a tension spring and overextended it. It is very difficult to weave those springs together!
(http://www.cj3a.info/reference/seatspring.jpg)
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If it helps at all, I have not yet installed my seat springs as I am not that far along with my project yet. If you need any detailed measurements or close up pictures I'd be happy to send what you need. The springs are cleaned up and just sitting in my "to do" parts pile so they are easily accessible at this point.
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Ryan, Thank you for the offer to get some measurements. To start with I would need each springs outside diameter of the coil, pitch i.e. center to center distance between each coil, length of each spring, as well as the material diameter of each spring. �
Carl, I have been giving your comments a lot of thought. �I�ll bet it�s almost impossible to weave the springs back after they have been removed from a serviceable seat. �They would be in the post heat treated condition. �I know nothing about heat treating steel to make it a spring, �but I think when the seats were made they would be assembled in an non heat treated condition that would lend itself to assembly. �Then the assembled �seat spring� would be heat treated to make them act like springs. �I�ll ask the heat treat shop we use at work if they know anything about this. �It�s my hunch the cost of finding the right steel to weave into a seat spring and then heat treating the assembly is cost prohibited for two or three seats. �But I will find out.
Steve
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You won't be able to heat treat the spring steel after the seat is assembled. You can measure the wire diameter and get spring wire that is not hardened and bend it to the series of U's to the same shape as an original and have that heat treated. Then you can bend it to make it spring up but you still have to have the wire frame that is part of the seat spring configuration plus all the spring supports in the frame.
After you get one done you may never want to do something like that again. The fact that no one makes a replacement spring seat frame to cover should tell you something about the difficulty of making one.
Go to an upholstery shop and ask if you can sit on some different thickness and hardness of seat foam. Then make a decision as to how it would work for you. Be sure to pull your feet up on a box to replicate how you would sit in the Jeep. Be aware that for most of us the back part of your butt will contact the seat more than your legs, unless your short.
While I did test the foam I wish I had picked a firmer foam for my seats, for on a long drive my butt gets sore. So with that thought when you pick the foam you like choose the next firmer foam. �
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Here is a pic of the coils in a 1950 passenger seat. THose of the driver's seat didn't survive.
I'm planning to get them copied. If that is feasable, would anyone be interested?
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Hi Harald, That looks like it would be a really comfortable seat. I'd be interested in finding a spring seat. Been meaning to talk to my local upholstery shop here but haven't yet. Afraid shipping from Portugal would put it out of reach, but I do hope you keep us updated with your progress. I know there are a lot of us out there with the newer foam seats who would love to improve on the comfort.
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Looks like someone has modified the springs in that seat. The entire spring assembly should be made from the "zig-zag" type springs that are on the perimeter. Later replacement seat springs were made up of the coil springs like the center 6 springs in this assembly. Walcks 4WD makes reproduction CJ-2A seat springs.http://walcks4wd.com/seat-spring-set-back-and-bottom-cj2a-1945-1949.html
The CJ-2A bottom springs are thinner than CJ-3A springs.
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I've used these springs in Model T's I've built. The company got there start in seat springs and are open to making custom springs.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/model-t-seat-springs?page=1&perpage=12
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There is a noticeable difference in the way the seats feel on a rough road. In my CJ3A I have 4" Foam in the seat bottoms and it is very comfortable but my 53 wagon has the spring seats and it feels like riding on air suspension! Sort of like the air ride seats in a big rig.
The foam does support you but it just does not have that "spring" feeling when you are on a rough road or trail. I am amazed at how much the foam costs as well. I got mine from Beachwood Canvas. They have 3" and 4" seat bottoms.
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When I first put my 49 together I did not have the seat backs and it looked good without them. Until I took it for a ride and it beat me to death. If anyone is thinking they can get by for awhile without backs forget it! Off topic I know but just saying in case anyone thinks they are not needed.
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The CJ-2A bottom springs are thinner than CJ-3A springs.
Bob, I have the padded seats and covers from Beechwood. They are 3 1/2 inch thick including the plywood pan. Are the 2A seats the same footprint, with the thickness being the only difference? Do you think I could get these 2A springs and have my upholstery guy add foam to make them fit my 3A covers? I guess Walcks doesn't make the springs for a 3A.
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Yes, the CJ-2A and CJ-3A seats have the same footprint. As far as I know Walcks doesn't make the CJ-3A bottom springs. Maybe if enough people request them they will?
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Hi everything,
I've been searching for Springs for a long time.
Last week I found this passenget SEAT.
I know 3A SEAT springs are 4 inches higher.
How about BACK Springs.
Are 3A back Springs the same as 2A back Springs?
Regards
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CJ-2A and CJ-3A seat back springs are the same thickness.
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Thanks Bob W!
A renowned restored jeep in my region sold its scrap to an enthusiastic.
I had the opportunity to check the material and bought the seats I could identify in the middle of the wagons seats.
I�ve found 2 passenger seats and I could confirm your explanation according to 2A-3A same back seat.
Also that 3A and M38 have different springs packs or the spring pack has evolved throughout M38A1 production because I�ve found 2 different passenger bottom spring packs.
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It is destroyed but I agree it is similar to the one in the beginning of this topic.
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One back spring is ok the other ones is bad :-/
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I have been able to identify 3 different spring packs, but I do not know if the first one is from a cj2a.
as it seems to have the same height ...