My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: specialty on February 27, 2016, 07:13:44 PM
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Here are a few photos of what I have done so far after many hours. Some of the frame. body and 1 of my CNC'S. I have most of the metal work done on the body and a friend blasted it. Now I want to start body work. Is it good to to DA with 80 git and then apply filler? I want to get it straight as possible so I may put a thin coat over the entire body doing it in sections and then block sand it to get it straight and the waves out. Good plan?
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Looks fantastic...!
What is that thing on the transmission in front of the shift tower? Flashlight?
Body work is up to you...In my opinion if it's too perfect it kinda looses it's "jeep" identity...
In the pictures the tub looks pretty good....
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Paint that thing and put it on! Of course, you might have to do a little body work to hide some imperfections.
Nice shop and and jeep looks good so far!
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Looks fantastic...!
What is that thing on the transmission in front of the shift tower? Flashlight?
Body work is up to you...In my opinion if it's too perfect it kinda looses it's "jeep" identity...
In the pictures the tub looks pretty good....
Yes that's a flashlight. My eyes are not what they used to be! I forget the name of the color but As of right now I am going with the dark maroon mainly because I like it but under about 10 coats of rolled on paint I ran across it under all that. The tub is getting pretty decent now and solid. I made my floor pans and fabricated the transmission tunnel from about the shifter back. After blasting I have noticed some pin holes in the rear floor but it seems solid. What I would like to do is coat the inside of the tub and bottom with some sort of weather proofer then paint the whole thing with the top coat. I haven't looked real hard but have not seen anything that does not need to have the paint applied within a hour or so. I would like to do that myself then haul it to my buddies for him to paint it. However it could be awhile between the undercoat, sealer then paint. Have any idea of a product I could use that can sit awhile before painting? Something like PORS15 says to paint within a hour while still tacky. Thanks
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Paint that thing and put it on! Of course, you might have to do a little body work to hide some imperfections.
Here is a photo with what I started with so it has come a long way.
Nice shop and and jeep looks good so far!
I wish it was on already. I am getting close to my maiden voyage!� :D Mechanical and chassis work is about done except for the steering knuckles. I still have the dreaded wiring to do but I am going to keep it as simple as I can. Still haven't figured out how to make the tail lights , signals, brake and back-up all work with 2 bulbs. More research on the way there.
Will post more tub pictures as I go. Hope to get the hat channel going today and tacked on. I made my side steps yesterday and tig welded those together so hopefully they will be tacked on by tonight also. Spring is a coming and I want to get it on the road!
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The body was not salvageable so I made the 4 hour trip to get one that was but it still needed a lot of rust repaired but was repairable. I have used some pieces ff the old tub like the plate where the brake, clutch and steering column go through since my donor tub had been torched there I suppose to get removed. Also using some of the front fenders but that's about it for that tub. It does have most of the hardware on it though I can use on the donor that will save a few bucks since this is a budget project.
Anyone need a free cowl?
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Just a couple of thoughts.
If this tub has not been on your frame, you might want to put it on and make sure the mounting holes line up before paint.
This may be on your to do list but if you plan to use the stock fuel tank there are a couple of holes that need to be cut in the drivers side floor...the holes in the picture were in the replacement panels I bought and are not quite in the right place..but they give you an idea of location.
Do you plan to add the hat channels under the floors? The mounting bolts go through the hat's and that sets the height of the tub above the frame so everything clears....
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Looks good, go over it with the DA (at least the parts that show the most) and put a good epoxy primer on it. Sand blasting can leave a course finish, and make sure it is well cleaned. Good luck.
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Just a couple of thoughts.
If this tub has not been on your frame, you might want to put it on and make sure the mounting holes line up before paint.
This may be on your to do list but if you plan to use the stock fuel tank there are a couple of holes that need to be cut in the drivers side floor...the holes in the picture were in the replacement panels I bought and are not quite in the right place..but they give you an idea of location.
Do you plan to add the hat channels under the floors? The mounting bolts go through the hat's and that sets the height of the tub above the frame so everything clears....
I had put it on once to mark the mounting holes and drill them and I am going by that. I am not actually using original hat channels. I opted for rectangular tubing the same height and width, mainly because it's� much stronger and a fraction of the cost. I think 20 ft cost me about $25 through my metal supplier. I got those tacked on today along with my side steps. I will have to rework the steps because I overlooked the angle where the fenders bolt to them. My plan is to fabricate my tank out of stainless then figure out where to put my holes for the fuel line and sender unit. Looking at your photo's did you put seam sealer where you welded the pans in? Also with your steps, are the tops flush with the bottom of the tub? I think I need to move mine down flush where they are the thickness of the step lower than the tub so the hat channel supports it. Is that correct? Looks like you did a great job on yours.
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Looks good, go over it with the DA (at least the parts that show the most) and put a good epoxy primer on it. Sand blasting can leave a course finish, and make sure it is well cleaned. Good luck.
Lee, should I primer first or can I so the body work first. I know back in my day it was a no to put any filler on anything but bare metal. So far I have heard both ways on that along with the seam sealer. I would prefer to DA it and do the filler and seam seal then primer it. Mainly because I have a friend with good paint guns and a paint room for that. He says prime but either way would be okay as far as he knew since he paints for a hobby. He is pretty good at it though. Thanks
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Yes the side step sits on top of the hat channel where it extends beyond the tub.
The picture shows how the old step came off...
Rectangular tubing should be fine..there just needs to be something it there or those floors will resonated like a steel drum..!
I did use seam sealer, and two-part panel adhesive in places.
I did learn that you must be sure that no further welding will be done before you apply seam sealer...contaminates the weld and just generally makes a mess if you try to weld after it's applied....
Thanks!! The tub turned out way better than I had hoped, and it's holding up really well.
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I started messing with a tub again. These photos might help...
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181201_zpsoomhg18f.jpg) (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/athawk11/media/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181201_zpsoomhg18f.jpg.html)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181223_zpsxlfdmmq3.jpg) (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/athawk11/media/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181223_zpsxlfdmmq3.jpg.html)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181335_zpsk1pwzhes.jpg) (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/athawk11/media/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181335_zpsk1pwzhes.jpg.html)
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Great pictures guys. Now did you weld your panels or use the panel adhesive or both? I have a few places where the metal is a little thin but I think with the proper prep or sealer it would last for years as long as moisture doesn't get to it. I don't plan to use the 3A in bad or rainy weather because I have other Jeeps for that but I use my truck in the salt and snow. I don't even plan on putting a top on it because so far I have not seen one I like.
As far as the steps looks like I have to break my tacks and move them down to rest on the hat channel or tubing in my case. I need to redo the fender angle on them anyway. Darn, I had them tig welded real nice and now I have to cut the front back off and do it again. Easy to make but takes some time but saving the 50 or 60 bucks to buy them is money I can use on something else down the road. I am thinking about cutting my rear floor out and putting new metal in there also. It has a few pin holes and some dips from heavy objects thrown on it but is solid and with some sort of sealer would be fine after straightening out the low spots between the support channels. What would be a good sealer to coat the underside and inside of the tub with? Or is such a thing made that is durable and paintable to match the top coat? Or a bad idea?
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Great pictures guys. Now did you weld your panels or use the panel adhesive or both?
Both. I started without a welder and with my beginner's optimism thought I could get by-it was just going to be a patch and drive project after all....well if you look at my build thread you will see that the project quickly "exploded" into a complete rebuild....so I bought a welder and went back and reinforced many if not all of the panel seams where I had used adhesive......and then used seam sealer just before painting...
The 3M panel adhesive is very strong and works great on new metal. I did a couple of test pieces and could not separate them after it cured. It's expensive, and if you are lucky the auto paint store where you buy it will have a loaner applicator gun...otherwise that is another expense for something you may only use a few times...
I used it on the floors only. No side panels.
If I had any real welding experience and a welder to begin with I would probably never have used the adhesive......
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I understand what you're saying. I often wondered how the adhesive would hold up once exposed to the harsh elements over a period of time. Might hold up fine but I have never used it. Where did you get your seam sealer from? Do parts houses have it like Advance? I think I will need a truck load of the stuff because there are a bunch of seams on these things where water, salt, etc. could get into and make a real mess fast. Especially with that nasty stuff they put on the roads these days. I don't know if they use it in Idaho but here in Virginia they spray this junk on before it snows and that gives it more time to destroy your car before the snow melts and washes it away! This stuff is really nasty and should be outlawed but they use it like candy around here.
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They have started to "salt" the roads around here...too many slide-offs and crashes when it snows I guess...I think they use magnesium chloride..still a corrosive salt though...
I bought the seam sealer at an automotive paint store. There are lots of varieties of the stuff..I think I used the same gun as you would use with painters caulk.
A little practice and you can make a really nice smooth almost invisible seal and it can be painted..
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Looks good, go over it with the DA (at least the parts that show the most) and put a good epoxy primer on it. Sand blasting can leave a course finish, and make sure it is well cleaned. Good luck.
Lee, should I primer first or can I so the body work first. I know back in my day it was a no to put any filler on anything but bare metal. So far I have heard both ways on that along with the seam sealer. I would prefer to DA it and do the filler and seam seal then primer it. Mainly because I have a friend
with� good paint guns and a paint room for that. He says prime but either way
would be okay as far as he knew since he paints for a hobby. He is pretty
good at it though. Thanks
I like to put filler over bare metal too but I live in Mass. and sandblasted metal tends to rust real quick around here. If rust isn't a problem leave it as is, if not sometimes you have to sand it off where you need to do work.
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You should primer your tub to protect it from rust and then do any body work needed. If you don't primer it it WILL start showing rust spots.
BTW, nice machine tools. I saw a photo of a CNC lathe, do you do machine work for a living at home?
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You should primer your tub to protect it from rust and then do any body work needed. If you don't primer it it WILL start showing rust spots.
BTW, nice machine tools. I saw a photo of a CNC lathe, do you do machine work for a living at home?
I have a shop close to town about 5 miles away from my home and that's what I do. I have my Jeep there to do the dirty work and then will take it home to finish up. Thanks
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Agreed, I think they use that alien blood *crap on the roads up here. Depending on how fussy you plan on being (especially with a dark color) take a little extra time with spots like the hood and top of the fenders. In the right light a little spot can really stand out.
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Agreed. I just went and got me one of those foot long air pneumatic sanders. I plan on doing the hard work with that getting it down close and then finishing by hand with a foot long board sander on these big flat surfaces. I am no body man but I have done enough of it to know that big flat surfaces will show the waves and take extra work to get straight. I hope my patience doesn't wear out on it!
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Last winters project.
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Had more pics.
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Looks good. Did you do all the body work?
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Yes, it's a brand new Brookville roadster body. I had to take off all that nasty red primer a lot of fitting and tweaking and then paint. That dark brown stripe was a real pain. This is just a hobby for me, the results were good but I think I painted some parts 5 times (don't tell).
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You did a excellent job. Do you have your own paint room? I had a friend who painted a Scion for me in his garage with a makeshift paint room of plastic and a few exhaust fans. He waited for the perfect day and the results were outstanding. It had a little dirt and a few bugs in it but with base coat clear coat it was fairly forgiving after a good wet sanding and buffing. Most of the imperfections were gone or very difficult to see. Where there is a will there is a way is very true. Nice job.
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No special paint room, I do get some dust from time to time, I have a good exhaust fan though. This car was painted with acrylic
enamel so I could wet sand and buff it. My biggest problem is not knowing when to stop and wet sanding or buffing through a small spot then have to repaint an entire section. Good thing I don't do this for a living, I'd go broke, slow but good results.
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That's called job security! Or hobby security. Nice piece.
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Your progress looks really good so far. Hopefully we can go on a ride soon. I met a guy in Bentonville who has a 46 CJ2A. I mentioned something to him about going on a day trip up in the mountains and he seemed up to it.
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My opinion is to spray epoxy primer over fresh metal as soon as possible. You may think you will start the body work the next day but........life happens. Most good epoxy primers will allow you to spread mud on top of the primer but as mentioned earlier some people still like to sand down to bare metal and fill on top of that.
You didn't mention it, but a great product to use after body work is filler primer. This is thicker than epoxy and "softer" but its purpose is to fill in minor sanding marks and act as a final step before paint. There is one big secret to filler primer.....time. The longer you let it cure after spraying before final sanding the better because the primer will "shrink" a little as it cures. One local restoration shop will not touch their filler primer for a minimum of six months depending on the weather conditions. Of course, most of your body shops paint within 24-48 hours of the primer drying which is fine. It is just a matter of how slick you want your paint.
Finish body work is really not about money, but more about time and skill. I unfortunately have neither one of these......I usually end up looking like Thor when I do body work. However, I'm lucky enough to have a buddy who is an excellent body man and owns a paint booth!
Great looking projects!
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I agree the longer the primer sits the better, that lets it shrink into the scratches. I do most of my playing on weekends so stuff has a week to setup. I have some skill and way more time so it works out ok. It took me all winter to do just the model a body and I'm still finishing the hood.
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With me it's more of a time issue as my work permits. I have not done much to it the last 2 weeks.
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Any updates?
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I almost have the body ready! Had a few body guys check it out and they said it was pretty good shape. I have done some body work but back mainly in vocational school years ago but for some reason the technique never changed much. It's still the same old dirty work. However with the addition of some niffy air tools I must say it's made progress.
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A few more.
I would like to put some type of undercoating on the bottom and inside the tub mainly to cover where the panels butt together after welding and to clean things up some. I need something that can be painted over since I want the tub all the same color, in, out, and under. However I have not seen anything that does not have to have the top coat put on while the coating is still tacky. It may be a few days after doing this before I can get to the paint room. Any ideas?
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Go to a place that sells automotive paint and supplies, Look for SEM or 3M. 3M makes a product called rocker panel schutz, it's meant to be painted over, I've used it before with good results. I believe SEM makes a similar product, I've had good luck with their stuff too.
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Go to a place that sells automotive paint and supplies, Look for SEM or 3M. 3M makes a product called rocker panel schutz, it's meant to be painted over, I've used it before with good results. I believe SEM makes a similar product, I've had good luck with their stuff too.
Sounds like a good idea. Another guy had mentioned that to me also. Is there anytime limit before applying the top coat? I never have used the stuff but on a car it looks sorta like egg shell. After applying the build up primer and seam sealer it may
cover up some of the imperfections inside the tub. I could possibly then just use seam sealer and primer on the underside then. I thought about the 3M undercoating on the bottom and inside but have not checked on applying the top coating over it yet. Although it has good reviews I am also concerned about it flaking off in a few years leaving a terrible mess to remove and clean up. I had once bought a Jeep TJ the guy Rhino lined the hood and it was no fun getting that stuff off. Took about 4 cans of stripper and a lot of work not to mention the mess.
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The 3M product I'm talking about is for giving that slight texture and chip resistance on rocker panels, it has a texture more like an orange peel. It is kind of like a course eggshell when painted over, I don't know if your supposed to paint over it rite away but if you are I did it wrong, it came out well and never peeled. I think SEM actually makes one that you can tint with your paint and do it all at once. What type of paint do you plan on using (acrylic enamel,urethane,clear coat....)?
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I was thinking about using the 2 stage base coat clear coat. It seems to be very forgiving if your not spraying in a perfect environment. A run can be sanded out, dirt can be sanded out, etc, and buffed to where you can't see it. However I hear enamel can do the same thing. I have no idea which one is the most durable.
I have read over the products and the ones that are paintable seem to need painted within a hour or so. Looks like if I do use some sort of undercoat my painter may have to do it at his shop or time would run out. There may be adhesion issues if not done in that time frame, at this point I don't know.
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Another suggestion is to do what they do with Products like POR-15 that basically can't be painted once dried. Before the product is dry spray a primer coat into it. It can even be a good quality rattle can primer. As the product underneath dries it will bond with the primer coat and then your top coat will bond with the primer.
I sandblasted the underside of my 66 Chevelle and then laid down a good coat of POR-15 into the etched metal. Before the POR-15 could setup I sprayed a quality primer using my detail gun. Allowed the whole mess to dry for a few days and then went back with a Lt Gray Ford tractor paint and top coated it.
It looked beautiful since the POR-15 lays out flat even if brushed on the finished paint looked like it had been all prepped and done like the top side of a car would be. Only in this case the coating on the bottom of the car was so hard a nail wouldn't scratch it once it got the POR-15 layer. And VERY chip and rust resistant.
I see no reason why after doing a small test you couldn't do the same thing with your coating.
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Did you put the Por-15 on over the bare blasted metal?
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Update of the body on the frame. All went well here, I was real close on my mounts. Need to take it back of now and finish the prep. About done with the body work and it seems good and straight. Many hours went into that phase of this project. Hopefully will be painted sometime in April. Just need now to do the wiring and rebuild the steering knuckles yet. And probabley a million odds and ends.
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It looks great...taking the time now to make everything fit is definitely worth it....
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I had a few issues but nothing serious. I tried to plan things out so I would not have any bad surprises. I used about 3/4 inch rubber spacers between the body and frame. I noticed when doing the body it had a lot of stress cracks either from vibration or twisting. I don't know if bushings were originally used or not. I am also not going to bolt the rear of the front fenders to the frame. Looks like doing that would explain all the cracks in the fenders from the frame flexing. Anyone else mount their bodies on rubber?
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3/4" thick? I think the originals were about 1/4" and two were used in places...
But Nate, Garage Gnome, used thicker spacers and I think they look and worked fine...
Maybe he will respond.....
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I am also running rather tall tires (not installed on front yet) so the extra clearance is good . I have 98 Dodge Ram 150 16 inch wheels for these tires but I need to machine the centers out on the other 2 wheels yet. I put the ribber spacers under all the mounting holes. I see no reason why that would cause any problems.
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Front tires are now on after machining out the center of the wheel hubs. These tires may be a little big but will have to do for now. They are Co-op Super Spurs and probably ride like the tracks on a Caterpillar D9! Since I raised the body about 7/8" now i need to lengthen my front mounts where it bolts to the side of the frame and the front fender mounts where they bolt to the side of the frame. No big deal, just a little more work. All is fitted now and I hope to have the tub back off this weekend and off to get it finished prepped and painted next week or so.
Here are a few photos on what I need to do to the front body and fender mounts.
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Did you put the Por-15 on over the bare blasted metal?
Blasted and some areas that were wire brushed I used a Phosphate rust converter on the metal first. Then the POR-15
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Did you put the Por-15 on over the bare blasted metal?
Blasted and some areas that were wire brushed I used a Phosphate rust converter on the metal first. Then the POR-15
The thing is with Por-15 and other undercoatings they need to have the top coat or be painted within a hours time while still tacky. If not there could be a adhesion problem from what I have read and I want to paint the whole tub the same color top and bottom for a clean factory look. Although not all of this 3A will be stock or authentic I want to improve some things yet keep it on the original theme sorta speak. Thanks
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Finally I am finished with the tub! After all the welding and sanding, etc, my buddy sprayed it last week after glazing it and about 2 coats of high build primer. Being a rookie at body work he got on me for the sand scratches and the extra prep before painting. I did have one of the best builders in the country giving me pointers along the way though. Some of you guys may have seen his work. His name is Craig Naff. He has had the cars that he built on the cover of Hot Rod and other magazines. A few of his projects were for ZZ Top. Surely some of you have seen the videos of the street rods they drove on those and Cadzilla. He has had a few named street rod of the year. So I want to thanks him for his guidance and advice. Overall it came out great. It is very straight overall and I am very happy with it. He still has the Fenders, hood, and grille to paint yet but should all be done in a few weeks. I will post some pics of the tub tomorrow I hope. Trying now to tie up the loose ends so I can mount the tub and start the wiring.
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Finally I am finished with the tub! After all the welding and sanding, etc, my buddy sprayed it last week after glazing it and about 2 coats of high build primer. Being a rookie at body work he got on me for the sand scratches and the extra prep before painting. I did have one of the best builders in the country giving me pointers along the way though. Some of you guys may have seen his work. His name is Craig Naff. He has had the cars that he built on the cover of Hot Rod and other magazines. A few of his projects were for ZZ Top. Surely some of you have seen the videos of the street rods they drove on those and Cadzilla. He has had a few named street rod of the year.� So I want to thanks him for his guidance and advice. Overall it came out great. It is� very straight overall and I am very happy with it. He still has the Fenders, hood, and grille to paint yet but should all be done in a few weeks. I will post some pics of the tub tomorrow I hope. Trying now to tie up the loose ends so I can mount the tub and start the wiring.
Talk about "having some help". Wow. You are privileged! As a young lad I was a "Hot Rod" mag subscriber and a huge fan of the Cadzilla. I can still envision what the cover looked like when it was featured. Must have been in the late '80's sometime. Cool stuff.
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Ryan, you are right. The ZZ top hot rods were cool also. His work is amazing. Takes a full size picture of a 32 Ford (or whatever) hangs it on the wall, forms it out of plywood about 1" apart with the correct radius with a pile of sheet metal and forms the car. Builds the frames and all from nothing. I could only wish!
Anyway here are some updates on my tub. Still have the windshield frame, fenders and hood to paint yet. It is not the original color but it's close. I wanted something a little darker than the original. It has some spots but overall I am happy with it. On the inside I ordered U-Pull liner. It's a 2 part system and come with the applicator to spray it with. Covers a lot of the sores of the inside and I can also tint it later if I want to match the outside.
Ron.
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It looks almost red in the pictures but is actually a dark maroon.
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Nice!
You will be on the road before you know it...!!
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Nice!
You will be on the road before you know it...!!
I hope sometime in June. Plan on trying to start the 12 V wiring this weekend maybe if all goes well. I think my wife is starting to miss me ! She has been understanding so far but with nice days my luck may begin to run out.
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Looks beautiful! 8-)
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They go back together pretty fast....too fast...but it's fun!
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They go back together pretty fast....too fast...but it's fun!
Are you talking about the wife or the 3A?
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Only you can answer that... :D
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My 1st short run! This was her first drive in about 20-25 years. It did well. Have what I think is a rear main seal leaking a little but otherwise not to bad. I did forget just how bad the brakes are on old cars. Also it smells like its running rich. Think idle mixture screw will help that? The carburetor seems to be working very good though. No hesitation or stalling at all. Also put my hood on. Should get the last parts this week. Here are a few pics my wife took of it. I could tell she had her doubts but it made it back.
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SWEET looks great!
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Alright!! She's up and running! Congrats!!
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After 11 months it's finally out of my way here at my shop. Drove it the 8 mile trip home. Has a few issues like main seal leaking and the carburetor flooded out the last half mile. I know my float level is set correct so maybe it's the metering rod set to high. I taped on the carb in case float was sticking and it has not done it since but I have not run it much because I do not have tags yet. Any ideas on that? Also my main seal is leaking some. Should I use the rope seal or the neoprene type? Other than those issues it did pretty good. Not very comfortable with the seat so close and getting your foot to the accelerator pedal takes some time to get used to also. How would you drive one of these with big boots on?
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How can I turn these pictures? I turned them over in my downloads but still come out up side down on here.
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Nice looking Jeep
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Love the log cabin home too!
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Love the log cabin home too!
Thanks, Tumbleweed. How did you fix those pictures? Goes to show what I know about these boxes!
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I also wanted to thank Tim for setting me up with those headlight bezels, thanks Tim, and to this forum for all the help on bring this thing back from near destruction and deterioration. Thanks to all.
Ronnie
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Real sweet love it!
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I also wanted to thank Tim for setting me up with those headlight bezels, thanks Tim, and to this forum for all the help on bring this thing back from near destruction and deterioration. Thanks to all.
Ronnie
Ronnie, it was my pleasure. Better on your beautiful 3A, than tucked away in my parts bin.
Really nice work! Congratulations.
Tim