My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Ryan_M on December 08, 2013, 06:25:30 PM
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I installed a bellcrank repair kit and am having a tough time getting the bellcrank back on my M38. The inner bearing sleeve hits a same diameter piece coming out of the bottom of the frame mount. When I fully install and torque the nut on the shaft the bellcrank binds and is impossible to move. If I were to drive the bellcrank inner bearing sleeve down it would no longer be flush at the bottom and cause a problem there too. I am cross-eyed from scouring the web for a detailed bell crank install procedure and exact fitment of components. Can someone point me in the right direction or tell what's wrong from the pics? The rubber dust cap has intentionally been left off here.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/20131208_180514_zpsd2a205c5.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/20131208_180506_zps889d51a8.jpg)
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Hi Ryan,
My bell crank frame bracket does not have that flange hanging down.� Could it be the old� sleeve still stuck in there?
Unless there was a design change on the bell crank bracket for the M38???�
I could go disassemble mine real quick and take a couple photos.� Let me know.
Tim
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Good question and I figured it was coming. I don't think that's an old sleeve. I drove the old one out of the bell crank and have it sitting here now. It's identical to the new one in the rebuild kit. It is nice to hear yours does not have that - something is amiss.
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Ryan I agree...there is an extra part there..a bushing or a sleeve...and it's hanging down and binding...I too have been looking on the internet, but no luck so far...Can you look down from the top of the frame fixture, with a mirror, or maybe feel if there is a ridge in there?
Also, will the cinch bolt come out or is it stuck too? Maybe there is a sleeve that has moved....
There wasn't a big old flat washer or spacer there, was there?
Also, it seems to me that with the old pin out of the frame fixture, you could see into the gap ....of course with the engine and radiator in there it might be a problem....
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If it is an extra sleeve the diameter is right because the bolt slide right through as it should. If I remove it I would be left with too wide of a hole in the mounting bracket. And I'm not sure it would come out anyways.
It's tough to see in this pic but the whole thing is slit from the top to roughly halfway down. This is presumably to it will flex when the pinch bolt is tightened. I can run a razor blade right down that slit from the outside.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/20131208_194021_zpsf8c57b38.jpg)
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That is odd...It seems to me that the pin has a groove in it to allow for the pinch bolt, but it does not look as though the pinch bolt would even touch the pin....
Did you measure the old pin and order based on that, or did you order an M-38 rebuild kit? Can you show a pic of the new and the old pins?
Now I see that the kit Walcks offers covers all the 2a-3a-m38 etc....
Weird....
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OK...Now I'm going way out there...
Is it an M-38 frame? Does it have a machine gun plate?
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I reinstalled everything with the old bolt as it is slightly different from the new bolt. The bell crank no longer binds but it still seems weird that the bellcrank bearing sleeve mounts face-to-face with like "sleeve" hanging out of the frame mounted bracket.
It leaves quite a gap (more than before I took it all apart for the first time this morning) but the rubber dust cover thing that was there is about the same width as the gap. I have this posted on willysmjeeps with the hope that someone there will provide a pic of their M38 bracket.
I'm pretty certain the frame is M38. No machine gun plate on those, right?
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/20131208_200237_zps91a1d654.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/20131208_201253_zps267ec5c7.jpg)
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Went out and took it apart.
Crank...
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/image_zpsdf901ead.jpg)
Crank installed...
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/image_zps593abab9.jpg)
Frame bracket from below...
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/image_zps5550a026.jpg)
Shaft components....
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/image_zps80b60234.jpg)
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I thought all the military frames had the plate...but I'm probably wrong, as I can't find a picture of one with the plate...
There is a poor picture here of a bellcrank, maybe there is a rubber spacer/seal in there..
http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/4x4-clubs-off-roaders-suv/30568-project-jeep-willys-m38-3
Are the front frame horns boxed in? Of course i may be wrong there too....
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Tim - you are too accommodating! So it looks like your bracket has a sleeve in it too. It's upside down from mine. Since it is flush with the bottom of the bracket does it stick out on top or is it flush there too?
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Ryan,
Mine is flush at the top and flush on the bottom.
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Randy - That pic of the M38 Bellcrank appears to have a spacer in it. I really need to find someone with an M38 for a close-up of that bracket. And yes, my frame horns are boxed it. Shock-mount studs are threaded, and battery tray is different and clutch/brake shaft pivot mount is bolted to the frame
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..and Tim, I almost feel guilty that even after your glorious "first piece" press conference, within a week you felt compelled to remove it to help me out ..... ;D ;D ;D
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No worries, it is still easy to get to. You may have to see an M38 frame, but I'm almost thinking you could flush that up and be in good shape...as long as you have enough thread on the shaft.
Tim
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I think it's odd that Walck's offers the identical kit for 2a's, 3a's, FC150's, M-38, etc etc, yet there is no extra dust seal or washer for that gap....
Where's Bretto? Doesn't he have an M-38?
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I agree with Randy. I think Bretto is our key.
This could have been a design change, but why would everyone sell the same repair kit that is interchangeable between so many different Willys versions?
Tim
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Here is a picture of Bretto's frame.� This tells me it is conclusive that there was a design change for the M38.� Is there some type of shim pack available?
(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb356/1brale/M38%20restore/IMG_0343.jpg) (http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/1brale/media/M38%20restore/IMG_0343.jpg.html)
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I went through Bretto's build pics but I guess I didn't go back far enough.
That picture clearly shows a bushing or sleeve..
Ryan's post on the willysmjeeps forum got a response that shows some special washers/shims/spacers in there...here is the picture
I think Ryan needs to call Carl or John Bizal....
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/ecurb_1160/2013-06-07_121125_zps923ad89d.jpg) (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/ecurb_1160/media/2013-06-07_121125_zps923ad89d.jpg.html)
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There was a change. I'm still not sure if my bracket "sleeve" is correct but there did appear to be that protrusion there - whether sleeved or originally cast. The parts diagram for the M38 also shows a spring washer (which I don't have) and the thicker boot/seal that I do have in my pic. Those are parts #9 and #10 in the M38 diagram. If I can find a suitable spring washer replacement I think it'll be OK.
I am still a big fan of Walck's, but the "Bell crank kit 7/8" CJ2A, CJ3A, CJ3B, CJ5, CJ6, DJ, FC 150, M38, M38A1 Part Number: 920556" is another part that should not be advertised as completely suitable for the M38.
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Here is an M38 bellcrank bracket. It's difficult to see in the photo but the shoulder is part of the bracket and that's where the seal rides. The seal has a metal "spring" around it to provide more pressure on the sealing surfaces.
(http://www.cj3a.info/reference/bellcrkbrkt.jpg)
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Interesting. My seal does not have that spring. Is that the "6. SPRING, TENSION, SEAL" in the M38 Fig. 24 above? Fig. 24 seems to show #6 above the #7 seal but maybe it was meant to wrap around it?
I'm confident I can make my set-up work and I'm pushing this now solely out of curiosity. See what happens when you guys allow this step-child 3A variant to hang with the 3A family?�
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See what happens when you guys allow this step-child 3A variant to hang with the 3A family?�
I wouldn't have it any other way!� 8-). We're all learning new and interesting variants.�
Now, the million dollar question...�
What advantage/improvement does this design change offer?
The M38 was designed to "ford".� �Assuming all the seals are correct and fresh, would this be more water tight?
Tim
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Interesting, isn't it?
I think of the M-38 as a military CJ-3a but there are probably more differences than there are similarities.
I have a friend who has one and he swears it drives better than any CJ....maybe the steering box to bellcrank geometry is just a little different..
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I suppose the M38 would be more water tight with the added seal and spring. I know when I sloshed through deep water in my 3A last year I saw A LOT of water squeeze out of the bell crank when I regreased it.
I plan on taking the M38 on the same trip next year so I'll be able to compare test results....
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Interesting thread, I am intending to install the bell crank repair kit today� hopefully its pretty straight forward... ::)
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Nothing can be straight forward can it?
No what pray tell....
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Pressing, pounding etc ... Any words of wisdom here? Nothing on the web that I have found...