My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: terryb on November 15, 2013, 05:17:01 PM
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hello gentlemen, I experienced a problem with my '51cj3a today. I took it for a drive after doing some steering repairs, I got about 1/8 mile down the road and it quit on me. after cranking it over for a few sec. I noticed no fuel in the fuel pump sight glass. I assumed it was out so I dumped in 3 gals. and still no good. towed it home and after some investigating found the fuel pump not pumping and the distributor not turning. i have gone any further yet. was wondering if anyone else ran into this problem. im hoping its just a sheared key on the cam.
thank you for any and all possibilities
terry b.
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Both run off of the camshaft. It doesn't sound good.You can take off your valve cover and see if camshaft is turning. The oil pump and distributor are linked but the fuel pump has it's own lobe on the camshaft
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after some investigating found the fuel pump not pumping and the distributor not turning.
terry b.
Pull your dip stick and smell your oil. Pump diaphragm has possibly failed dumping fuel into your oil. Distributor runs directly off oil pump. Gasoline-diluted oil does not lubricate very well at all. Oil pump may have seized. Just got through with the fix for this. Another fuel pump and another oil pump. I replaced my distributor while I was at it.[/b]
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thanks guys, i'll check these out...
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thanks for the replies, Steve and Scoutpilot. I was finely able to tear into the jeep today, I pulled the line off the fuel pump and it was pumping fuel. I pulled the distributor and it seems ok. I pulled the oil pump out and its missing 3 teeth on the gear. not sure where to go from here. any suggestions as why this happened. I cannot turn the pump gear and don't know why it would have locked up and sheared off the teeth. the fuel pump and distributor are new parts. the oil pump is the original pump. I guess I will have to pull the pan to retrieve the teeth. im hoping the teeth on the cam are ok.
thanks again for all replies
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Can you post a picture of the oil pump? There has been issues with new ones locking up. I'm wondering if it is a new one or original.
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sorry but im not good at posting pic. as far as I know this is the original pump. the pump has 2 gears inside that run side by side. after taking off the end cover, every thing is free but still wondering why this happened.
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It is an older pump and likely the original. Do you recall how much oil pressure was indicated at the time of failure? Did you smell your oil? How long was it between this last run and the previous run? Had the pump been off the motor at any time prior to this last run?
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I didn't notice the oil pressure when this happened. I had just finished some steering part replacements and took it down the road. the pump has been on since the motor was rebuilt. oil is fairly fresh and at full mark. I have taken about 2 dozen short trips in my jeep since the rebuild.
thanks guys
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Did you remove valve cover and see if camshaft is turning? If it is then hopefully the hardness of the camshaft won out over the oil pump and a new pump may be the solution to it although not sure about fuel pump going empty before and not now.
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hi Steve, took your advice and removed the valve cover and the cam seems to be ok. the valves are working up and down.
my next step will be a new oil pump from Walcks. It will probably be a week or so before I get one and get it installed. I do appreciate all the advice and answers I get on the forum. it makes it a lot easier for a guy like me to where I am with this old willys. :) :) :)
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Before you place that order take a really good look with a flashlight at the gear teeth on the camshaft and make sure there isn't any damage you might have missed. Hopefully the cam is OK and just an oil pump will fix the problem.
When you do install the oil pump make sure there is adequate end clearance so it doesn't seize up and cause a similar issue. Also might be a good idea to pull the pickup tube and screen and make sure they are clean.
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sorry but im not good at posting pic. as far as I know this is the original pump. the pump has 2 gears inside that run side by side. after taking off the end cover, every thing is free but still wondering why this happened.
2 gears side by side sound like a new style one. The original would have had one gear inside the other. I'll post some pictures later on.
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According to the manual the "old" style pump before engine #44417 had the pressure relief in the pump cover, and the "new" pump has it in the body of the pump. But my new-this-year pump has the relief valve in the cap/cover, but no drain plug/cover plug as in the old-old pumps..
Perfectly clear...
Why Willys, Why?
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Here you guys go. Everything you wanted to know about oil pumps.
http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1384909829
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According to the manual the "old" style pump before engine #44417 had the pressure relief in the pump cover, and the "new" pump has it in the body of the pump. But my new-this-year pump has the relief valve in the cap/cover, but no drain plug/cover plug as in the old-old pumps..
Perfectly clear...
Why Willys, Why?
Do you mean engine serial #44417 or jeep VIN 44417? I had a 46 2A engine and I believe that had the relief in the housing.
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It was aluminum and had the relief in the housing. This had a serial number before that one you listed Randy.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx125/willyscjmj/B6CB9DAB-1F67-4142-889B-7BF63FA4377A-324-00000114266249AE_zpsc15285cb.jpg) (http://s748.photobucket.com/user/willyscjmj/media/B6CB9DAB-1F67-4142-889B-7BF63FA4377A-324-00000114266249AE_zpsc15285cb.jpg.html)
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I just found the number in the Service Manual in section D-62..they call it an engine #
It looks to me like both older pumps have concentric gears and the newer type have the side-by side gears. someone on the 2a page called the side -by-side geared pump a high capacity pump...
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/oil-pump-rebuild-info-needed_topic28650.html
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according to the pics. garage gnome posted my pump is the new style. not sure when this new style came out because this pump was on the jeep when I got it and it sat in a barn for about 25 yrs. before I got it.
all the pumps ive found on the internet are this new style so my question is, is there anything that can be done to these new pumps to keep this from happing again?
thanks again willys lovers,
terry
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@ terryb
http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab254/terryb505/679_zps15e224a2.jpg
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Nice looking jeep!
How is the oil pump coming along?
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Around here, like most vintage equipment sites, and given the age of these vehicles as well as the numerous design changes they went through (once or twice in the same day), "New" and "Old" are relative terms
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well I picked up a new pump on Saturday, I found one at auto zone of all places and they were the least expensive at $94 dollars. I measured the end cap gasket on my old pump and it was .006 in. the new pump measures at .008 in. I plan on pulling the pan off today and checking everything out just to be on the safe side. hate to do it thou because my oil pan is sealed pretty good.
there's no hurry to get it running because its cold as heck here in central Indiana right now, at least I have a warm garage to work in.
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update on my oil pump. today I removed the oil pan and found all 3 teeth from the oil pump laying in the bottom of the pan, that was great news. everything looks good and clean up in the block. pickup screen clean also. my next job is to install the pan but I need to pick up some more gasket maker. if anybody out there is looking for a good gasket maker try "the right stuff" gasket maker from napa. made by permatex. comes I a 7oz. black can.
does anyone know how tight the oil pump cover plate bolts should be tightened? I don't see any torque setting for them. just snug or good n tight???
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Hey guys, this happened to me as well. I found that the oil pump gaskets provided in traditional re build kits is not to spec. It is too thin, consequently when the motor gets warm, the distance between the cover and the pump gear gets too tight, And soon the pump locks up. Terry if you just crack the bolts on your pump you will find that the pump turns easily. Then you can replace the gear if you want to., In all cases you should buy NOS gaskets for the pump cover. Midwest Military has them and they are quite cheap. FBill can attest to the troubles we've had with pump lock ups and it seems as though it happens on new ones as often as rebuilds, the cover gasket sets the head space on the pump gear, so if it is too tight it will lock up.
Todd
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Terry,
All this oil pump talk is making me paranoid...
I re-read your thread and from what I understand the engine was rebuilt, with a new oil pump, and you had taken about two-dozen short trips before the failure...
Is that right?
I have about 120 miles on my rebuild, including a new oil pump....
I'm still wondering if I should take some evasive action and dodge the imagined bullet...
I checked the Felpro kit and there appears to be 5 or 6 leftover oil pump gaskets, as we installed a new pump..I just don't know if these are pump cover gaskets or pump-to-block gaskets...
How would you check the end-play on the pump? check the shaft movement with the cover on? Or with a straight edge across the casting with the cover off?
Thanks,
Randy
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CJ
Carl is the machinist in the group, and could probably figure this put in a minute or two, but I think it would be difficult to determine the right end play in a completed assembly.� I bought a NOS gasket for my replacement, after the lock up, and I noticed a couple of things.� First it was thicker, and John at Midwest can tell,us the correct dimension, but I also noticed that the material was different between the two gaskets.� The NOS gasket was thicker, stiffer and did not seem to be affected by the oil, while the Felpro was thinner, less resilient and seemed to absorb the oil and become almost mushy.
That said, was I to try to measure them I would try to compress a portion of one between two flat metal rulers, like the 6 inch one in Carl's shirt pocket ;D.
That would compress a large portion of the gasket without deforming it, use a micrometer and you can measure the thickness of the rulers and just subtract to get the material thickness.
Gun
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The book recommends putting the cover on without the gasket, and insuring that the pump locks up....
it does...
and then put it together with the gasket and insure that it turns freely.....
Seems like there is room for error in that method...
I agree about the gasket. the one in the felpro kit is just a thin pale yellow papery material, while the old gasket is a stiff dark material...
It turns out my old pump is aluminum with the concentric
gears...
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I'm thinking plastigage could be used for a ballpark check. As could feeler gages and a straightedge.
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update on oil pump, pump installed and set the timing yesterday, oil pressure a strong 40 lbs. took the old gal for a ride in the snow covered field. she ran great, just hope there's no trouble with this new pump. thanks again gentlemen for all the advice and suggestions.
terry b.
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Good news and helpful to all even though you didn't want it to happen. Torque on the pan bolts is 9-14 lbs.
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Glad you are back on the road (field?)....!