My Willys 3A and 3B Community

3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: garage gnome on October 17, 2013, 11:56:35 AM

Title: Why Willys, why?
Post by: garage gnome on October 17, 2013, 11:56:35 AM: As I was yanking the '49 apart, I noticed that there are 2 styles of shifter boot retainer rings. The one on my '49 has the sides folded down. On my 53, the sides are cut straight. Both have the asterisks * stamped in them. Just one more thing to keep in mind if you are doing a 100% correct restoration.ï¿½ ;)

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx125/willyscjmj/28BC84F0-B50A-40BF-A146-FBF85DB16C46-10662-00000F2F2A2C4100_zpsb0daf1da.jpg) (http://s748.photobucket.com/user/willyscjmj/media/28BC84F0-B50A-40BF-A146-FBF85DB16C46-10662-00000F2F2A2C4100_zpsb0daf1da.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 17, 2013, 02:33:31 PM: Ah yes...yet another unanswered question...but which is "correct"??
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: athawk11 on October 17, 2013, 08:24:04 PM: I've never seen the straight edged version before. The two '49s, one '46 and a '48 2A tub all have the bent edge style. Maybe this is a late 3A change?

Tim
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 17, 2013, 08:45:54 PM: Mine has the straight edged style...I've never seen a bent one...But I've only seen ones off the 3A and the CJ-5....thats two!
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: stony on October 17, 2013, 08:46:15 PM: Here is my "untouched" early (#11159) '49'.ï¿½ Cut edges!
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: SteveW on October 17, 2013, 09:10:08 PM: Straight cut on my 50
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: Ryan_M on October 17, 2013, 09:32:35 PM: Straight on my '51
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: athawk11 on October 17, 2013, 10:00:18 PM: 1946 2A.ï¿½ It was a little dark out there...

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/image_zpsf1be1677.jpg)

ODie, the late '49 3A...

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/image_zps939e1a62.jpg)

Whitey, the early '49 3A. #13655...

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/image_zps922828f3.jpg)

I couldn't find the '48.ï¿½ I think it's in one of the bins full of rusty Willys gold.ï¿½ ï¿½;)
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 17, 2013, 10:18:00 PM: Tarnished....not rusty!
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: macrisel on October 18, 2013, 01:12:06 PM: My late '51 has the cut edges. The one on my reproduction tub was a full circle (not yet bent) that I cut off to match my original one.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: athawk11 on October 18, 2013, 01:31:07 PM: Where's Bob Westerman when you need him?
;) ;D

Tim
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: Gunslinger on October 19, 2013, 10:53:05 AM: I have an early 50, it has the straight edges.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: calvinhunt on October 20, 2013, 01:04:07 AM: My early '49 has bent edges.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: garage gnome on October 20, 2013, 06:48:40 AM: It must be a leftover from the 2As then. It appears only the 49 3As have them. Am I safe to say this? The data we have points to this.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: SteveW on October 20, 2013, 08:31:22 AM: I would think so, to say that Willys was a frugal company would be an understatement.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: athawk11 on October 20, 2013, 09:05:42 AM: Nate,
There is one anomaly.ï¿½ Stony...Early 49...cut edge???

I suppose this ring may not be original to his Willys.ï¿½ As we all know,ï¿½ it is very unusual to find a 100% correct and original Willys these days.ï¿½ A lot happens in 60+ years.

I did find my spare '48.ï¿½ It is a bent ring.

I still think we need more folks to chime in before we make this conclusion.

Tim

From a '48 2A tub...

(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/image_zps53729530.jpg) (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/athawk11/media/image_zps53729530.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: stony on October 20, 2013, 10:51:54 AM: Quote
It must be a leftover from the 2As then. It appears only the 49 3As have them. Am I safe to say this? The data we have points to this.

Nope LOL ;)ï¿½ My 1949 #11159 has cut edges, Calvin's 1949 #12118 has folded edges.ï¿½ ï¿½Sounds like they had a bin full of mixed parts and just grabbed one and bolted it on.ï¿½ I am pretty sure mine has never been changed or taken off for that matter, and would have to assume that if it was the original was lost, odds are against that. Oh BTW, I have had it since 1974, so it was 'only 25 years old' when I got it :D so pretty sure it is the original part..
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: stony on October 20, 2013, 12:13:47 PM: OK went to , my parts book. There are two "RING transfer shift lever grommet" parts numbers listed
663490 up to sn. 38221, assuming that is the one with bent edges.
663793 after sn. 38221 and that number supersedes as a replacement.

I still think mine is original, but a seed of doubt has been planted ;)

That would take it up to about early 1950 right? Yeah, we need to get more input from other folks. BTW mine has the Oaks (flat top) air cleaner too :D.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: athawk11 on October 20, 2013, 05:39:06 PM: Okay Stony, that begins to make sense.ï¿½

Scenario..It's 1958.ï¿½ PO accidentally tears his shift boot while loading his garden tools into the Willys. Throws out the old one.ï¿½ A month later, he finally has a chance to get into town.ï¿½ Heads down to the Kaiser Jeep dealer to pick up a new one.ï¿½ ï¿½

The new style ring comes with the new boot.ï¿½ Good thing too.ï¿½ He accidentally threw the original style away with the torn boot.

I'm just making a point.ï¿½ Just when you think you have your Willys figured out, something throws you a change up.

Heck, I'm just as guilty.ï¿½ I thought my GPW engine was original when I first got the Willys. ;D ;)

Tim
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: stony on October 20, 2013, 08:08:54 PM: Yeah I am beginning to think that is the case.ï¿½ It is looks like they did not even make the cut edge rings until 1950, so it is certainly plausible (even likely) that it is a replacement.ï¿½ ï¿½So for a 100% correct it probably is #38221 is the cutoff for the "bent edge" ring.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 20, 2013, 10:31:42 PM: So, do the bent edge rings have this weird little star?
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: stony on October 20, 2013, 10:58:49 PM: The first photo in this thread shows one with it.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 20, 2013, 11:25:54 PM: Quote
The first photo in this thread shows one with it.

Sure enough...and now I remember noticing it...it's been a whole day after all....
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: Bob W on October 28, 2013, 02:34:27 PM: Okay, I finally did some research on those shift boot rings. CJ-2As after serial number CJ-2A 38221 used part number 664378 (before serial #38221 2As were column shift). 664378 has the folded sides. This part continued to be used throughout CJ-2A production and into CJ-3A production.

In September of 1949 part number 649890 was released for production on Pickups and Wagons. This is the ring with cut sides. During this time period Willys was trying to consolidate parts across their vehicle lines, so that's probably why this new ring was now installed on CJs too.

Since the two different rings were fully interchangeable (on CJs) both types could have found their way onto 3As for a while, bracketing the actual change point.

The Parts Listings agree with what we are seeing in the field on survivors. The 1949 and earlier listings have part #664378 and the 1950 and later listings show part #649890 for CJs.

Thanks to Keith Buckley, Sean Collins and Mike Myers for their help, and all the people who supplied information from surviving vehicles.

More data from the field is always welcome!
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: Quebec Jeep on October 28, 2013, 04:13:25 PM: My 3A is a 1950 and I got this;
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: Bob W on October 28, 2013, 04:25:35 PM: Can you guys with the 1950 3As include your vehicle serial numbers too?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: Quebec Jeep on October 28, 2013, 07:42:09 PM: Cj3A 56908
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 28, 2013, 08:25:23 PM: 1951...15241..cut retainer...
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: garage gnome on October 28, 2013, 08:28:21 PM: Uh oh... Bob is on a mission. Watch out!

Here is something to think about too. The uncut retainer will not work with an OD unless modified.
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 31, 2013, 08:57:57 PM: I think I've stumbled upon the reason for the little star/asterisk that is stamped into the rings...

The holes are about 5/16" further apart in the rear of the ring than in the front...

The starï¿½ is on the narrow end of the ring, so the star goes forward.

Imagine putting these together on an assembly line and having to try the ring six different ways before it would fit...the star eliminates the guess work...
Title: Re: Why Willys, why?
Post by: Bob W on November 01, 2013, 02:28:03 PM: Interesting. The factory drawing doesn't have any star marking shown.