My Willys 3A and 3B Community

3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: JohnR on October 16, 2013, 12:43:53 PM

Title: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: JohnR on October 16, 2013, 12:43:53 PM: Hi,
After looking for a flat fender for a while, I recently purchased what was advertised as an Army jeep for, sit down, $5000.ï¿½ I know it's a bunch, but where I live a new truck rusts out in a few years and this thing is dent and rust free save for some minor hat channel rust.ï¿½ It's a running driver, and I figured that the saving a ton of panel replacement was worth something.ï¿½ There is a paper air element currently installed and in the distant past someone bypassed the oil filter.ï¿½ Both problems easily fixed, and it has 25 psi at idle when hot, so I believe the engine is alright.ï¿½ Here's the issue:ï¿½ The serial number claims it as a 1953 CJ3A, but the body says otherwise.ï¿½ For example, the dash has a glove box, which suggests military.ï¿½ Looking in the nooks and crannies under the dash, I'm seeing olive drab, military again.ï¿½ There are no indentations for shovel holders on the side however, and there is a tailgate.ï¿½ Crawling all over the thing when I got home, literally every weld is a tack weld on the side of the panel components as opposed to a spot weld.ï¿½ This holds true for all the joints under the dash and even the inside of the glove box, areas not usually replaced or modified from original.ï¿½ What am I dealing with here?ï¿½ The strange part is, it looks original and OLD.ï¿½ Is it possible someone built this thing from parts 50 years ago?ï¿½ I'm hoping to get pictures up in the next week.ï¿½ As an aside, the guy I bought it from said he got it from a retired army colonel who purchased on base.ï¿½ The man passed and his wife sold it.ï¿½ The last owner claims he has pictures of the Colonel sanding the olive drab and doing the present poor paint job, obtained from the original seller.ï¿½ I'm hoping to get those.

Thanks,
John R.
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 16, 2013, 01:00:20 PM: How large is the fuel tank filler opening?

Does it have a center vent in the windshield frame that you can open with a latch on the inside?

Does it have a covered(battery) compartment on the cowl, passenger side, between the windshield/dash and the hood opening?
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: PaulS on October 16, 2013, 01:51:49 PM: My Jeep came with a reproduction body that sounds a bit similar to yours in that it has a glove box and tailgate, but no shovel indentations. (I haven't checked the welds, so I can't compare that part to yours.) In addition it has the military tranny hump (removable) and the parking brake on the left side. It was installed in the 80's and was rusted horribly (I'd have believed it was original, if I didn't know otherwise).

-Paul
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: athawk11 on October 16, 2013, 04:47:31 PM: John, based on your description, I think Paul has given you your answer. Early reproduction tubs had a mixture of common features that you would find on a 3A (Tailgate opening) and a military Jeep (glove box).

That said, 1955CJ-5 is trying to determine if you have an M-38 that may have had the tool indents patched over. These indents would be found on the passenger side on an M-38. Check his list of items against your Willys.

How large is the glove box? Take a look at a photo of an MB glove box... Then find a photo of an M-38 glove box. You will see an obvious difference.

Post some photos when you can. We all enjoy new treasures.

Tim
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: JohnR on October 16, 2013, 11:46:27 PM: Hi
I looked closer after work today, and I do have the shovel notches on the passenger side.ï¿½ There is a vented cowl with an inside latch on the windshield frame.ï¿½ As to the fuel opening,ï¿½ are you referring to the actual filler neck or the hole in the body?ï¿½ The body hole appears to be about 3 1/4.ï¿½ I am not seeing any provision for a battery in the location described.ï¿½ The glovebox door looks like an MB.ï¿½ There is no tool compartment under the passenger seat.ï¿½ The hood, stamped Willys, doesn't fit tight against the welting.ï¿½ There is actually a gap on each side about 3/4 of an inch or so.ï¿½ ï¿½I wonder if I have a Frankenjeep.ï¿½ Thanks for the help, and I hope to have the wife help me post pictures this weekend.
John
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: JohnR on October 16, 2013, 11:50:04 PM: I forgot to mention that the transmission hump is removeable and the master cylinder cover is bolted with 1/4-20 bolts.

John
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: 1955CJ-5 on October 16, 2013, 11:52:25 PM: Does it have tool/storage bins in the rear part of the wheelhouses?

The fuel cap on the 3a is 2 3/4" across...the M-38 is larger but I'm not sure by how much...over an inch though..

It sounds like you have a 3A windshield frame, but windshield frames are interchangeable
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: johnrb3b on October 17, 2013, 10:35:07 AM: Quote
I wonder if I have a Frankenjeep.
Frankenjeep usually means there are pieces of other, non-Jeep vehicles.
Like F Bill's Pinto Jeep.ï¿½ ;)
If you have a mixture of years/models of Jeep parts, then you have a Jeep Salad, like my 3B which has an engine and trans from a Wagon or Pickup.
;D
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: JohnR on October 23, 2013, 04:16:30 PM: Hi Guys,
Haven't had a chance for pics yet, but have had some more time to crawl over my jeep.ï¿½ I spent the money I did under the assumption that everything was original, and I think I got the you know what.ï¿½ Anyhow, I'll have to work with what I have.ï¿½ That will also give me some options as to how I build it.ï¿½ As to the body, I think that it is an early repro.ï¿½ Hat channels don't line up with body mounts, toeboard gussets appear to be on backwards, meaning that the left is on the right and vice versa.ï¿½ There also isn't any strap from the gussets to mount to the frame.ï¿½ I looked the frame over closely, and there is some rust thru on the enclosed frame insert under the engine.ï¿½ When I strip it down, I'll have to repair or replace both sides.ï¿½ Since I'm at it and set up for it, what are the thoughts on boxing in the whole thing?ï¿½ At this point original is out the window and resto-mod is my only option.ï¿½ Got a quote of 450 for blasting the frame and axles and priming with DP235, and a similar price for powder coating.ï¿½ Leaning towards the paint.ï¿½ Repro body or not, it is in very good shape and seems to be made substantially.ï¿½ Just needs some "TLC".ï¿½ Appreciate thoughts on the frame mods.

Thanks,
John
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: athawk11 on October 23, 2013, 05:32:52 PM: Hi John,
My humble opinion only...

For the weight of the Willys, the original 3A frame is pretty stout.ï¿½ Much stronger than a 2A frame.ï¿½ Fully boxing it in may be overkill unless you intend to torture it on the trail.ï¿½ Then, by all means, go for it.ï¿½ The wire harnessï¿½ and brake lines are the only items that hide in the frame, and can be re-routed or fed if you leave some gaps.

The M38 has the same frame as a 3A, but they boxed in the frame rails toward the front bumper, and added another plate above the rear axle.ï¿½ I like this modification.ï¿½ I feel it was the strongest frame made for the flat fendered Willys Jeeps.

Tim
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: JohnR on October 23, 2013, 10:11:20 PM: Tim,
Maybe I'll implement those suggestions instead of a full box job.ï¿½ I can find a ton of CJ2a frame repair sections, but nothing for a 3a.ï¿½ Any sources, or fab your own?
Thanks,
John
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: athawk11 on October 23, 2013, 11:25:19 PM: John,ï¿½ probably a few reasons that you don't find 3A frame sections.ï¿½

1. The 3A is far more rare than the 2A, thus demand for repair sections would be less.
2.ï¿½ The 3A frame was constructed using a heavier gauge steel.ï¿½ It would probably take longer for them to rust beyond a usable state.

I haven't needed to do too many repairs on any of my frames, except the frame horns, and some welding repairs around the tube shaped cross member.ï¿½ When I measured an unpainted frame rail, I got measurements ranging between .162 to .167, so 8 gauge steel.ï¿½ If you decide to box in some portions, I don't think you would need to go this thick.ï¿½ In fact, the steel used to box the original portions of the frame is 13 gauge steel, as are the cross members. Hope this helps.

Tim
Title: Re: !953 CJ3A?
Post by: JohnR on October 24, 2013, 04:18:08 PM: Thanks.ï¿½ I'll know more when the body is off.ï¿½ Might just replace a few of the heavily pitted sections, replace the rear spring hangers and send it to the blaster.ï¿½ ï¿½A swipe with some body filler, spray it and call it good.ï¿½