My Willys 3A and 3B Community

3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Tucker on September 09, 2013, 11:31:35 AM

Title: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Tucker on September 09, 2013, 11:31:35 AM
I've got a question for you all that I need help on.  As I'm fairly new to the flatfender world, I'm not sure what's kosher here.

I have a titled 3A tub that is currently off the frame as I go about patching/restoring it.  It has a bad right rear corner, cut up rear fender wells, a cutout in the dash for a stereo, and a missing passenger toolbox.  I'm going to do my best to repair those problems to make it structurally sound if not cosmetically perfect or authentic.

I also have an untitled 2A tub with bad floors and hat channels, but fairly good side panels and dash.  It also has a mediocre toolbox.  Right now, I've got a Craigslist ad up for the tub, asking just a few hundred bucks.  I know original tubs are not common anymore, so I want to offer this one to someone who may need it.  But now I'm tempted to slice it up and use its good panels to repair my 3A tub.  Just about everything that is wrong with the 3A tub could be patched with the 2A tub.

So what do you think?  Slice up the 2A for my own purposes and scrap the rest, or do my best to find it a new home?

What would you do or what have you done?
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Tucker on September 09, 2013, 11:34:31 AM
Make your vote count!
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Ryan_M on September 09, 2013, 12:22:09 PM
If it were mine I'd probably cut the 2A tub for parts, but I'd have the same reservations as you. If the 2A tub was new in a crate I might think differently but it sounds like it has it's own issues.

Either way, it's your stuff. Do with it what you want.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: athawk11 on September 09, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
Hi Tucker,

My vote hack 'em to make a complete tub.

I did with my tub, precisely what you are contemplating.�

I have a combination of a 2A tub and 3A tub.� This Willys is originally a 3A, so I made the decision to change the 2A items used for the tub rebuild, into 3A specs.� Namely, the dash area and one of the wheel houses.

Here is a link to my build thread...

http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1364925701

Tim
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: F Bill on September 09, 2013, 12:45:40 PM
Use what you need off the 2A tub , make what you can from flat steel, and offer the remains to anyone who may need it. The tunnel section and firewall areas are often butchered on jeeps and good used panels often are closer to the real shape than aftermarket.

Whether the tub is titled or not doesn't enter in to the equation if you have screw on data plates. (There may be an acm number on the left gusset on some flatfender tubs but it is not a VIN. )

Do you have any more to the 2A or just a tub?
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: garage gnome on September 09, 2013, 12:57:51 PM
I SAY COMBINE THE TWO ALSO. I WOULD DO THE SAME THING.

oops, forgot caps lock was on from working on my autocad drawing... ;D
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Tucker on September 09, 2013, 02:40:20 PM
Quote
Do you have any more to the 2A or just a tub?

I have more for the 2A than the 3A in terms of body parts (no 3A window frame or fenders or hood, but all of those for the 2A).  But the 3A tub is more solid (just needs some hack jobs repaired) and the frame and drivetrain are 3A, which is what it is registered as.

I want it to be as much 3A as possible so that when I eventually go through the process of getting an updated/corrected VIN using the 451 GB1-XXXXX serial number, it will be less of a hassle. (The motor was swapped out, so my current VIN--motor number 647711--isn't on the vehicle anymore.)

So complicated.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Haines Garage on September 09, 2013, 03:32:19 PM
Hack the 2A, ;D ;D ;D fix the 3A. For what my vote counts, but yes save what you dont need for us 2A Guys ;). Like Fbill said.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: p3ferris on September 09, 2013, 10:22:48 PM
What would I do...I would use all the parts available that will fit  then sell the remaining parts that are good to someone that needs that part to fix theirs up.  win win situation
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: calvinhunt on September 10, 2013, 12:38:26 AM
I'll be the 7th one to say, Make one from the two.� But, often people ask advice in order to feel good about what they really want to do.� If cutting up the 2A to complete the 3A isn't what you want to do, then just do exactly as you want.� No one here will be offended. Just post a few pics along the way so we can enjoy your project with you.�
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: scoutpilot on September 10, 2013, 06:52:06 AM
This issue may be couched in a quasi-moral/ethical debate, but many have been faced with this dilemma. What it actually boils down to is societal pressure and the recently (last forty years or so) of the need for instant gratification. I counsel patience and a diligent search for as many correct parts as you can find that fall within your budget constraints. If you mix the two you will need journeyman skills, or access to them, in order to pull it off with any measure of success. Then, when it comes time (and it will) to sell, you are faced with questions from a prospective buyer as to authenticity. I'm not saying you won't be able to sell it, I'm saying your market will be limited. Many of us have purchased a minimum of two and often more parts jeeps. I personally have purchased seven, but I bought them cheap enough to justify parting them out. Parting out an old jeep can help defray the cost of a correct restoration.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: duffer on September 10, 2013, 09:27:43 AM
Quote
This issue may be couched in a quasi-moral/ethical debate, but many have been faced with this dilemma. What it actually boils down to is societal pressure and the recently (last forty years or so) of the need for instant gratification. I counsel patience and a diligent search for as many correct parts as you can find that fall within your budget constraints. If you mix the two you will need journeyman skills, or access to them, in order to pull it off with any measure of success. Then, when it comes time (and it will) to sell, you are faced with questions from a prospective buyer as to authenticity. I'm not saying you won't be able to sell it, I'm saying your market will be limited. Many of us have purchased a minimum of two and often more parts jeeps. I personally have purchased seven, but I bought them cheap enough to justify parting them out. Parting out an old jeep can help defray the cost of a correct restoration.

Would using "correct" patch panels be any more authentic?  If done carefully, the 2A patchs will be just as good as any other means.  I would find a 3A windshield frame.  IMO, just a much better arrangement, not to mention "correct".
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: johnrb3b on September 10, 2013, 09:58:22 AM
I'll chime in with the rest.
Cut what you need from the 2A tub. If it's rotted enough in the bottom, it's not worth much anyway.

Where are you located? I've got an M38 windshield with good glass. The M38 is a 3A with the vent door bolted shut.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: 3aJeeper on September 10, 2013, 10:00:23 AM
I agree - make one from the two. Likely if you were to sell the 2a tub, it would be used for the same parts you need.

Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: BMIC on September 10, 2013, 11:15:32 AM
I agree with the rest and for the same reasons, a total respect for what Willy's represents.
I appreciate that you would ask the question in this forum before making the first cut in the 2A.
 To steal a bit from ScoutPilots well written post, there is no instant gratification involved here just a diligent effort to honor the hard road these jeeps have traveled.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Carls_jeep on September 10, 2013, 11:16:33 AM
The after market body parts are not as good as the original metal parts. Use what you need off the 2A for the 3A. There is little difference between the 2A and 3A tubs.

If your a good welder and can smooth out the joints no one will know what you did. Just don't over heat the panels when welding and use lap joints on the panels.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Tucker on September 10, 2013, 01:18:24 PM
I love this place.  You guys are great.  So glad I found this both before and during my build-up and restomod.

I come from the world of FSJ's, which also have a lot of overlapping parts between the different models and are getting rarer every day.  Over on IFSJA, parting out rigs to keep others going is encouraged, with many having parts Jeeps out in a back lot somewhere.  But there's also a strong contingent of members who scorn those heathens who cut for clearance for their 44" mud boggers.  I just wanted to get a feel for what this community does and try to respect that in my Willys.

For me, this is not going to be a period correct restoration.  The question is more about quality and efficiency.  I will be doing the body work myself, and cutting out a curved rear corner from the 2A tub to patch the 3A tub makes sense because its curve and gauge thickness are already correct (or darn close) when I go to weld it in.  It'd also, for what it's worth, remaining Willys through and through.

In the end, depending on percentages, this thing will be more like a Willys CJ2.64359A.   :D
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: athawk11 on September 10, 2013, 03:34:35 PM
Quote
In the end, depending on percentages, this thing will be more like a Willys CJ2.64359A.� �:D

Love it!!
 [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: SteveW on September 10, 2013, 03:37:54 PM
Use what you want for your jeep, make what you want to try to make and buy other pieces when you need to. 3a's are rarer than 2a's.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: johnrb3b on September 11, 2013, 10:05:29 AM
Quote
I just wanted to get a feel for what this community does and try to respect that in my Willys.
You'll find that this group is very open minded when it comes to degree of restoration. You won't get flamed for failing to do a period correct restore using all NOS parts. We understand that each has different goals for his Jeep and vastly different financial and skill resources.

Make your Jeep be what you want it to be and enjoy the process. We'll all be behind you with any help we can give.
Title: Re: Ethic/moral debate, sort of. Advice needed
Post by: Matto on September 11, 2013, 05:43:42 PM
It's better to have one good Jeep than two bad, and other folks may be able to make use of parts from the donor tub that you don't use.
my .02 :)