My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Ryan_M on August 22, 2013, 09:49:44 PM
-
On a whim I decided to attack the steady ooze of transmission fluid that's been dripping from the back of the e-brake. Figured I'd pop the ol' seal off the output shaft and slap a new one on. 3 hours later I finally have managed to chisel, drill, pry, hammer, and chip the old seal into a thousand little bits all over the garage floor. I'm pretty certain every finger and both hands are bleeding.
Anyways, now that the little bugger is out I really am not looking forward to repeating this project anytime soon.
I'm posting a pic of the output shaft. Anybody see anything alarming that I should deal with before I put it all back together? I'm curious about that paper looking gasket that the new seal will butt up against.
I also want to confirm which direction the new seal slides in. The rubber seal is tapered - does the wide side go towards the TC case?
Anything else I should watch out for?
I rebuilt the tranny during the initial overhaul but never did anything with the transfer case. I figured I'd save that for another long winter. Since the rate of the leak seemed to be steadily increasing I thought it was best to tackle this seal now, even if only to hold me over until snow flies and Jeep season is over.
-
I'm not sure what you mean by the seal is tapered. The OD of the seal should be the same diameter from front to back. The flat side of the seal goes toward the outside and the open side with the rubber lip goes toward the inside of the transfer case. Please show a photo of the wear area on the yoke because that is where the seal rides and if it is worn with a groove in it the seal will still leak. If the yoke has a groove worn in it you will have to use a speedie sleeve on it or replace the yoke. If the rear output yoke is leaking it's a good bet the front drive yoke is leaking too.
-
I coated the paper gasket and the seal edge with a very small amount of Permatex 2.� Also, remember to use some on the splines.
Unfortunately, I have the same affliction as you.� As Carl mentions, if the surface is grooved on the yoke, a new seal may help for a short while, but your problem will quickly return.� I was just looking for speedy sleeves yesterday.
Tim
-
The yoke looks OK (I think). The seal is the type that does not have an open side. I'm pretty sure the side shown in pic #2 goes towards the TC, right?
-
Yes you want the tapered side pointing into the tcase or funneling in if you will. One thing I did on mine after I had it together and found it leaked with a new seal was to find where the seal rode on the yoke. All seals may not land in the same spot on the yoke. So I drew a few lines on the yoke with a sharpie and reinstalled the yoke. Gave it a few turns and pulled it back out. This showed exactly where the sealing surface was for that seal. I found that it was hitting in a bad spot on the yoke. I then just seated the seal in a bit further in the tcase so it hit a better spot on the yoke. Mine doesn't leak now.
-
The Papas goes into the mamas and it should do it freely and easy.
I used this rules for any oil seal that I need to replace. On TC, diff, crankshaft....
So the Yoke is easier to enter in your picture #1 since it don't go against the rubber lip.
-
Yes, side #2 goes toward the T?C and the wear area on the yoke looks ok in the photo.
-
I appreciate the answers. I still question myself on what often seems obvious. It's much easier to ask for clarification online when bored at work than it is to blow an entire sunny weekend redoing something that's wrong ;D
And thanks to Pascal's colorful explanation I'll never forget it.
-
I haven't tried removing the TC seal set, but it looks a lot like the pinion seal on the axles. (Especially the way the yoke comes out leaving a space between the shaft and the seal.)� I got that out with this tool:
(http://images.palcdn.com/hlr-system/WebPhotos/83/830/8309/8309395.jpg).
The smaller one (6") didn't work very well, but I was just able to squeeze the tip of the bigger one (12") between the pinion shaft and the seal.� Once the tip is behind the seal, a couple whacks with a hammer, and the seal popped right out.
-Paul
-
I'm really battling with this output seal. I can't get it to seat in any further than what is pictured. I already destroyed one new seal from banging on it. I'm using a 2" socket and a hammer. The TC bore feels smooth. Is it supposed to go in any further than this or just to that "lip" that's visible in the photo from my first post above? Seems like it needs to go in further in order for the yoke to fit on properly.
-
I used a piece of PVC tubing that fit the seal size and a 4oz rubber hammer.
It should go further. There should be a felt between the seal and the yoke.
Advise...always take picture before removing things. Then you would see How far in it was.
You can screw the yoke and take the chance take it will push the seal where it should but this is not the way i would go.
-
I used a piece of PVC tubing that fit the seal size and a 4oz rubber hammer.
It should go further. There should be a felt between the seal and the yoke.
Advise...always take picture before removing things. Then you would see How far in it was.
You can screw the yoke and take the chance take it will push the seal where it should but this is not the way i would go.
Yes, I almost religiously take "before" pics prior to every project - I have thousands. But, of course, I neglected to do so here.
I started with a PVC pipe and it broke. I moved up to a socket and 3lb hammer and it still won't budge any further. In fact, the first seal bent inward and the second one is starting to do the same.
I also tried putting the yoke on and screwing it down in hopes of pushing in the seal. In the process I destroyed both the seal and the flange on the yoke. The flange bent backwards without moving the seal. Now I will be ordering a new yoke.
Something just doesn't seem right. I'm thinking the seal is going as far as that lip on the inner bore of the TC and stopping. Does anyone else know if their TC has that same lip?
I've been to 5 parts stores today plus scouring the web trying to see if maybe I have the wrong seal. Everything I'm reading and hearing says I have the right one but it just won't seat.
EDIT:
I just found this pic from last year. I redid the e-brake but I did not replace the seal on my initial rebuild. It should have looked the same a couple days ago as it does in this old pic. The seal definitely slides back further but it appears to be a different type of seal. It does not have a flat face like my new ones. Unfortunately, the one pictured here is has been reduced to a pile of metal crumbs.
-
I pulled the seal again. I am now the proud owner of an actual seal puller. It reduces a 2 hour screwdriver job to about 15 seconds. At this point I probably would have paid $1000 for it but the parts store let me have it for $10.97.
There is no doubt my seals are stopping at that lip. Can anyone tell me if that lip is part of the case or could it be part of the old seal still stuck in there? I'm afraid to start prying on it and causing damage to something that is supposed to be there.
-
From the looks of the picture I would say that part of the old seal is still there. It does not look like a machined "lip".
-
For those of you have been following my ramblings of a mad man here on this thread - that IS the remnant of the old seal stuck in there. I just pried it out and the new seal pounded right in, just as it should. Go figure.
In collateral damage I figure this mistake cost me over $100 more than it should have (destroyed yoke for which I will have a replacement shipped overnight, 2 seals, etc) plus time and aggravation. Half the battle is even knowing what you're looking at to begin with. Live and learn.....
-
For those of you have been following my ramblings of a mad man here on this thread - that IS the remnant of the old seal stuck in there. I just pried it out and the new seal pounded right in, just as it should. Go figure.
In collateral damage I figure this mistake cost me over $100 more than it should have (destroyed yoke for which I will have a replacement shipped overnight, 2 seals, etc) plus time and aggravation. Half the battle is even knowing what you're looking at to begin with. Live and learn.....
That's truly valuable ($100) knowledge!
I think most of us have been there too....sometimes twice...
-
Well, look at it this way. It was a highly entertaining thread. Plus, it sure is great when you finally figure out the problem and are able to put it together properly. ;)
-
Life is full of learning experiences and it's great if we can remember them when something similar occurs. Glad you got the problem solved.
-
Good job!
-
Glad that you got a good solution to the problem, and as I am about to tacklethe same thing, I bow in your direction for the Future Help.
Great post, great pics.
Thanks
Zeke
-
This post is actually a very good illustration of the value of forums like this. People who have virtually no knowledge of what they're working on can post a query on a forum--with photos--and voila, problem solved. Imagine trying to figure out stuff like this twenty years ago without the internet? I have trouble remembering how we got along without the internet. Or cordless drills. ;)
-
This post is actually a very good illustration of the value of forums like this.� People who have virtually no knowledge of what they're working on can post a query on a forum--with photos--and voila, problem solved.� Imagine trying to figure out stuff like this twenty years ago without the internet?� I have trouble remembering how we got along without the internet.� Or cordless drills.� �;)
It took me quite a while to actually get a cordless drill.. but I agree totally with your comment about the internet My first jeep sat for two years because I could not find a source of parts for the broken gearbox in it....at the time the only place I knew to look was in the classified section of the off road magazines.
Today, if you need a tranny shaft for a jeep....you have tons of possibilities.
I'm so glad Al Gore invented the 3A page ;D 8-)
-
I'm staggered at the thought that some of our younger members have not lived in a world without the internet...just as we could not imagine that our parents lived in a world without television...
Does Al have a jeep? Is it green?
-
"In collateral damage I figure this mistake cost me over $100 more than it should have (destroyed yoke for which I will have a replacement shipped overnight"
Where did you get the yoke from and how is the quality?� I only ask because I need one.
-
Where did you get the yoke from and how is the quality?� I only ask because I need one.
The new yoke (companion flange) is from Walck's. It arrived yesterday. This thing is still giving me fits. I installed the new yoke and when I tighten down on the nut on the output shaft it binds the emergency brake. I removed the brake pads and guts entirely to rule them out. I'm not sure if the drum is pressing into the backing plate or if one or more of the 4 bolts that hold the yoke in place is not seating properly and binding. This is driving me crazy. I'm going to try and re-install tonight without the brake drum and see if I can make that work.
I'm not sure if I still have a problem with the seating of the new seal, if the new yoke is different, or if the bolts are not positioned correctly. This should not be that difficult of a repair. I've taken this assembly apart before and reassembled without issue but this time I have new parts which are adding different variables. Extremely frustrating.
I'm concerned that the collar that holds the felt washer is not back all the way. Does this look right?
-
Ryan,
Are the four bolts that hold the companion flange the original bolts or new bolts? If new, are the hex heads taller than original?
Tim
-
Ryan,
Are the four bolts that hold the companion flange the original bolts or new bolts? If new, are the hex heads taller than original?
I believe they are original. At the very least, they are what has been there since I've owned the Jeep and they have been working fine until this output seal fiasco. That's what makes me wonder if the new seal/yoke still have issues.
To help eliminate problems and possibly save me some time, two more questions:
1. Can the yoke etc be installed without the e-brake drum? I would like to try that.
2. How critical is the cap on the yoke that holds the felt seal? My old yoke is fine except for that cap. I may try and reinstall it, minus the cap. I know the felt supposedly keeps dust and debris from entering. Am I just asking for huge problems by running without it?
-
1. No. 2. Yes.
-
Ryan, looking at the picture of the yoke and flange it would appear that the flange is not seated all the way. Could the flange be binding on the TC housing when you tighten the yoke nut? Is the new felt ring crushed when you removed it?
-
I just called Walck's. They told me that the flange should be seated all the way back. They advised removing the flange, widening the hole with a proper diameter pipe, and reseating it.
On one hand I'm discouraged they don't ship "correctly" but on the other hand I'm optimistic this may be the culprit. It'll give me something new to try and instead of removing and reassembling the same parts in the same order over and over again hoping for a new result....
-
I fixed the felt flange so it now is seated correctly up against the yoke face - no more gap. The four bolts that hold the yoke to the e-brake drum are more cooperative now and seat as the should. I have left e-brake pads out for now. I'll readdress those this winter. They're pretty greasy anyways.
I still have a problem when I torque down on the large nut on the output shaft - something is still binding. If I loosen the nut just a bit everything spins as it should. Am I over-torquing that nut? I thought I read somewhere it was supposed to be 125ft/lbs and I don't think I'm even going that far. Is it safe to leave it backed out a bit (with cotter pin)? Or does it need that 125 ft/lbs??
-
You have something assembled wrong inside the T/C. You should be able to torque the nut without making the bearings tight. I suggest you don't run it that way.
Since you didn't mention having the T/C apart I will assume this condition was there when you pulled the parts to replace the seal and not your fault. I don't have my manuals with me so someone else will have to post a diagram of the T/C to show you where the issue is.
-
Since you didn't mention having the T/C apart I will assume this condition was there when you pulled the parts to replace the seal and not your fault. I don't have my manuals with me so someone else will have to post a diagram of the T/C to show you where the issue is.
I have never had the TC apart. I removed it during the initial rebuild along with the transmission. I completely rebuilt the tranny and bolted the TC, "as-is",� back onto it. Earlier this year I installed one of Herm's overdrive units, which requires mounting through the TC but no real invasive surgery.
I have no idea what had been done to it prior to me. I wish I could remember now if I had the same torque issue when I bolted everything back together for the first time last year. Either I was able to torque it down without a problem or blindly left it loose and have since racked up 3000 miles. I just cannot remember which way it went.
-
Do you still have the old flange? I think you said that the area where the drive shaft bolts up was damaged, but will it slide on the output shaft spline and torque up without binding?
-
Do you still have the old flange? I think you said that the area where the drive shaft bolts up was damaged, but will it slide on the output shaft spline and torque up without binding?
I do have the old one. The only damage is to the cup/collar that holds that felt seal. The rest is fine. If I thought I could have removed that part from the new one and put it on the old one without destroying it I probably would have.
-
Ryan, I read your thread on the CJ2A site about this and the fact that you had to seat the seal shield against the yoke. The length of the yoke will not affect the fact that you can't torque the nut the problem is inside. I'll look at Calvins manuals tomorrow and see if I can help you. In the mean time I would just snug it up some and if there is a cotter pin hole line it up and lock it in place. That would work for now. I suspect that the nut has not been torqued to spec. since before you owned the Jeep.
I will look in the manuals tomorrow and see if I can help you but I think your going to have to pull the T/C to fix it.
-
I looked in Calvins manuals and what you need to do is get a shim pack for the output shaft housing. Remove the speedo cable and pull the housing. Then add a .020" or .030" shim and put it together without the yoke. At that point there should be a lot of end play in the shaft.
Then use a dial indicator with a magnetic base to measure the end play of the shaft. The end play should be .004" to .008". remove or add shims to get the correct end play, assemble everything and then torque the nut and cotter pin it. The torque is to keep the speedo gear from spinning on the output shaft and hold everything tight. The shim pack sets the end play.
The bearing in the front output shaft housing is a ball bearing and you DON'T want any pressure against a ball bearing unless it's a thrust type which that one is not.
I'm still trying to figure out why everything locks up when you tighten the yoke nut. If it doesn't have enough shims then the bearings should be to tight even with the yoke nut loose. I didn't have the yoke on when I set the bearing end play on my T/C.
If you decide to not do the above fix then loosen the nut so there is no tension on the shaft. If you tighten the nut it will eventually wear out the front output shaft bearing and you will be pulling the T/C to repair it. With the yoke nut loose the speedo will not work because the gear will spin on the shaft.
-
Thanks for the info Carl. I have ordered a shim pack and will need to hunt down a dial indicator. If I owned one already I may not have had this problem....
-
Does the yoke bind on the output shaft housing, or can you tell?
Are you able to move the shaft fore-and aft at all with the yoke off?
Here is a thread showing the process...
http://thisoldjeep.fr.yuku.com/topic/248/D18-Transfer-Case-Assembly#.USbB0x1O8kh
-
Great reference....thanks for a perspective of what I am in for too.
Regards
Zeke
-
Then use a dial indicator with a magnetic base to measure the end play of the shaft. The end play should be .004" to .008". remove or add shims to get the correct end play, assemble everything and then torque the nut and cotter pin it. The torque is to keep the speedo gear from spinning on the output shaft and hold everything tight. The shim pack sets the end play.
Still waiting for parts and tools to arrive and have been reading as much as I can in the meantime. Everything I have found so far indicates that the front bearing cap must be removed to properly measure the output shaft end play. Is that really the case or am I misunderstanding what I am reading? I would prefer to measure the end play (with my new dial indicator) and add or remove shims without opening another can of worms by removing the front bearing cap. Is that possible?
-
Have you measured the current end play? You need to know that before you start.
If there is presently no end play in the shaft, you need to remove the rear bearing cap, then you need to take the front bearing cap off and tap the shaft so that the rear bearing cup is moved out a bit. then by adding shims and replacing the rear bearing cap/cover, the rear bearing cup is re-seated at the proper depth. .006 end play is just barely perceptible by hand.
If there is currently too much end play, all you need to do is remove a shim from the rear bearing cap..this will re-seat the bearing cup when you replace the rear bearing cap.
End play may not be the issue....
Can you turn the shaft freely without the yoke in place? If you don't have lockout hubs you might have to remove the front drive shaft...and of course insure that the t/c is in neutral.
At which point, when installing the yoke, does the shaft start to bind?
Can you tell if it is the shaft that is binding or is it the yoke?
If it were me, I'd make every effort to straighten the dust cover on the old yoke, and see if I could make it work, as it worked before.
The new yoke might be drilled too deep allowing it to seat too far down on the shaft, allowing the dust cover to bind.
http://www.cj3apage.com/index/Tech_Tips/Model%2018%20Rebuild.htm
Here is a quote from that site:
"Since I do not have a run-out gauge I checked it by feel. It should just barley move. If it has no end to end movement at all, it is too tight. The endplay is adjusted by installing and removing shims under the rear-bearing cap. If you are just under the correct measurement it should work out OK when you get to the next step. If you are almost over the correct measurement you may need to remove a shim. I suggest that the measurement before sealing the case should be 0.002" - 0.006" Note: If you have over-tightened the shaft it will be necessary to remove the front bearing cap and tap the output shaft to the rear again until free. CAUTION: Tapping on the front output shaft with the front bearing cap installed can damage the front cap because of the front bearing cap lock-ring."
I really hope you solve this without having to dissassemble the t/c...I just can't imagine how a previously working t/c would need to have the endplay adjusted simply as a result of removing the rear yoke and oil seal....
I just had another idea...could the yoke be binding against the new oil seal?? Could the seal have been distorted when you drove it in, or maybe not be properly seated?
-
The front output shaft is mounted in a ball bearing and the end play is fixed there. I see no need to pull the front cover. The rear output shaft has a bushing that floats on the pilot end of the front output shaft and that is where you need to set the end play.
If you pull the front cover that will allow the ball bearing outer race to move in the housing and you won't be able to set the correct end play.
Set the end play at .004" to .008" and I think I used .006" as a happy medium. What you don't want is the rear output shaft jammed against the front output shaft. It won't hurt the rear tapered bearing but it will damage the front ball bearing and where the two shafts meet.
Look at the parts diagram in your Willys shop manual to see what I am describing. If you don't have the shop manual then buy one, you need it.
-
I don't have my dial indicator yet but since I have the day off and it's pouring rain, I decided to tinker some more. I pulled everything apart again and found that the binding was definitely caused by the 4 bolts that hold the companion flange to driveshaft - they were rubbing on the rear bearing cap. The rearing cap was damaged and two of the four bolts showed signs of contact.� I know those bolts were seated correctly which leads to further suspicion of the new companion flange.
-
Some interesting observations in the new vs. original companion flange. The original is taller than the new one. I don't have a way to precisely measure the overall height but it is obvious they are different. The "shaft" portion of each is the same so the difference must be in the "base". The new flange also does not fit snugly through the hole in the e-brake drum. Even with some hammering, it just would not seat all the way. Perhaps grinding it down would help it to fit but with the difference in lengths I'm not certain it would matter.
So, I ended up robbing the collar/dust cover off the new flange and installing it on the original one. I put everything back together (including another new output seal for good measure) and torqued down hard on the output shaft nut. Whaddya know - no binding.
I still have no idea what the end play in the output shaft is but everything was working fine until the introduction of this new companion flange. Re-installing the old flange shows that everything works as it should again. I still have not topped off the TC fluid and taken it for a real test drive but at least for now I think I have identified the culprit.
-
Excellent!!
-
Problem solved, don't trust reproduction replacement parts only use NOS parts.