My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Paddy on August 27, 2013, 10:56:56 AM
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I've completed my CJ3A, and everything seems to work like a charm. I sent the transmission and transfer case out to be re-built by a transmission shop, but I seem to have a problem. It shifts fine however, when it's in 2 wheel drive and I either glide in gear or let off the gas in gear there is a loud sound that is not quite a grinding sound, but it does not sound "right." This does not occur when I'm in 4 wheel drive. During the rebuild I installed an overdrive kit from Herm The Overdrive guy, and it works fine. At least thus far (200 miles). The only thing I can think of is that when they rebuilt the transmission they did not replace the main shaft. Any ideas on how I can troubleshoot this issue, or any suggestions on who I could take it to south of Denver, CO? Thanks.
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Try taking the rear drive shaft out and drive it around with the front axle. I think it is something in the rear axle or a bad u joint. If you still get the noise, then it is something else.
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I had a similar issue accompanied by a continuous leak. Check this for explanation. http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1367627098
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You might also just rest your hand on each of the shift levers while it's making the noise..you might be able to "feel" if the vibration is coming more from the transmission or from the transfer case.
Do you have lockout hubs?
Also make sure the yoke's are aligned on the drive shafts. If they are not aligned it can cause a low rumbling sort of vibration..Probably not the source in this case but you never know...
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I don't have lock out hubs, there is no vibration that accompanies the sound, there are no leeks or puddles. Just a rumbling noise when I glide in gear. I think it's the intermediate shaft, and that the shop that I took it to didn't replace it when they rebuilt the transmission. And replacement looks like a real bi_ _ _ once the tub is back on and I got to tell you I don't plan on taking the tub back off!!
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If that sound is like a whine when you let off the throttle in first, second and third then it is just worn gears rubbing against each other. That is nothing to worry about and the only way to stop it is to replace all the gears in the transmission. It's not worth the effort or cost.
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I was thinking T/case intermediate shaft too, but it could be a number of things inside the t/case. I wouldn't think that anything in the transmission case would care whether the transfer case was in two-wheel-drive or four. But then, never say never.....
South of Denver? I'm North of Denver. BW
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Thanks. And BTW it makes the noise when I'm in overdrive as well. So you know anyone in the greater Denver area that you'd trust to look at it? I don't feel qualified to tear into the transmission. When I rebuilt my 3A I did everything except the engine, transmission and transfer case. Go figure. I guess I can't complain because if I did rebuild engine etc. the whole project would still be in a million pieces. At least it's together, now I'd like to solve this problem that I thought I was going to avoid by having a "professional" address the transmission and transfer case! Let me know if you have a recommendation for someone in the Denver area.
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Paddy, you need someone to drive it who is familiar with the sounds of a CJ3A Jeep before you let anyone tear into it. You don't list where you live and until you do that no one is going to respond to help you because they don't know if you live by them or not.
I am a quadranoid but I have my location listed. Now if I am four times a paranoid then the average person should have no problem listing where they live. OH, I am also an extreme skeptic so list where you live so someone can help you.
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Sorry live in Castle Rock Colorado, just moved from Cin., OH. Thought I mentioned that above. Cheers.
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Ahh, Castle Rock, just below Denver. Now your in Jeep trail country. I'm in SE Utah now driving the trails. Well, back to the problem. I don't think it will hurt anything to run it as is until you have time or money to fix it. I'll check the manuals and post tomorrow.
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Paddy,
I'm in Arvada. I can't swear that I would know the sounds you are hearing are okay or not, but I'm willing to listen. I'm not in Castle Rock very often, but I might be able to head that way at some point. I work in Denver. My job has me around the metro area occasionally.
Tim
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I mentioned above that I'm north of Denver. Actually, I'm NE of Greeley, or east of Fort Collins, whichever way you want to look at it.
Although the T-90 & D18 are fairly new ground to me, I have a lot of experience with transmissions used in the past by GM, Ford, and Chrysler, and some in the transfer cases as well. I'd be glad to take a "listen" at it sometime and give you my opinion, and I'm equipped to work on it too, if you were to wish me to. My work takes me to points south of Denver occasionally, but it's a summer business, and is slowing severely now. It might be a good excuse for a road trip, though. BW
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Thanks for the offers above. It's a real puzzle. I was under it this morning and all looks fine. I took the suggestion to feel all of the shifters while driving then compare while gliding; when it's making "the noise." The shifters all felt the same, gliding, driving etc. No change whatsoever to the feel. The only thing I noticed when I was under it this morning was the grease spray from the rear u-joint just before the propeller shaft connects to the rear differential. I'm wondering if that may suggest a bad u-joint and that perhaps that's the cause of the noise. Any thoughts on that? Thanks.
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It is normal for grease to fly off of U-joints for a while after they have been greased.
Were the rear U-joints in phase?
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I either glide in gear or let off the gas in gear there is a loud sound that is not quite a grinding sound, but it does not sound "right."
Just throwing out another idea, on my 54 3B F head, if the timing is slightly retarded, you can get a very subtle and rapid backfire thru the exhaust when you let off the gas and coast. It almost sounds like something rattling.
Matt
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Also make sure the yoke's are aligned on the drive shafts. If they are not aligned it can cause a low rumbling sort of vibration..Probably not the source in this case but you never know...
?Were the rear U-joints in phase?
I think I know the answer, but I'll ask anyway to be the scapegoat for silly questions, but..........what do you mean about the yoke's being aligned (or "in phase") on the drive shaft? I am assuming this means that if the front yoke is pointed straight up and down (ie 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock) the back yoke on the rear end should be pointed the same direction upon assembly.
Does this apply to the front drive shaft also?
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The two yokes on the shaft should be pointed the same way. So, if we went from the parking brake hub to the rear axle, the first joint you would set at vertical. The yoke attached to that, and the driveshaft, would be horizontal...the next set of cups would also be horizontal, then the final set attached to the diff would be vertical. The only way to alter this is to slide the driveshaft splines apart and slip it back together offset from where it should be. If you go 90 degrees out it will shake , as well as any other permutation that is not in line.
Some driveshafts only go together one way and on those you cannot get it wrong unless you break something or cut and weld. This applies to both front and rear shafts.
Here's a great Google find on driveshafts worth reading.
http://jniolon.clubfte.com/drivelinephasing/drivelinephasing.html
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Not sure what you mean when you ask "were the rear u-joints in phase?" I don't know what "in phase" means.
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OK I understand now what in phase means. I'll check that. It's possible since I didn't know that I re-connected the propeller shafts incorrectly. You know what they say about learning something new everyday.
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Alright I checked the phase of my propeller shafts and here's what I found and now a new question.
Each shaft is in-phase with itself.
However, when the first front shaft connecting to the front differential and it's counterpart connecting to the transfer case is at 1 o'clock and 7 o'clock the rear front shaft is at 10' o'clock and 4 o'clock where it connects to the e-brake housing and rear deferential.
When the front first shaft of the u-joint is at 1 & 7 on the dial should the rear first shaft and it's counterpart that connects to the rear differential also be pointing at 1 & 7 on the dial?
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One last shot at the above question that is not too clear.
Should the front propeller shaft and its u-joints be exactly parallel and in phase with the rear propeller shaft and its u-joints?
So that hypothetically, should I have four (4) joints on my two propeller shafts pointing at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock and four (4) joints pointing at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock?
Thanks
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If it were full time four wheel drive that might be a good idea but you have to disengage your transfer case front shaft to be in 2WD. Unless there is only one possible point for it to engage your matched shafts will probably no longer be matched the first time you disengage and reengage your front axle.
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This thread just came to mind...
http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1374991505
Long shot but you never know....
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I was out driving the 3A tonight and here's my new theory. For whatever reason when I "attempt" to disengage the 4 wheel drive it does not fully disengage, and hence the whine. Why else would the noise be completely eliminated when I fully engage the 4 wheel drive? Any thoughts on that theory and if so any suggestions on how to address or determine if that theory is correct? Thanks,
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Since you don't have lock-out hubs you could take the front drive shaft off to disengage the front axle and relieve the load on the T/C....but if it is inside the transfer case that may not make any difference...
If you were not fully disengaged and you are driving on asphalt you would almost certainly hear other noises, and you would feel it...
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My ex-wife had phases......I didnt know that U-joints did too.
Could you explain for a doofus?
Zeke (in Oregon)
Sorry.....just read the excellent explanations above.
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Paddy, how do you know if your 4whl lever is engaging or disengaging 4whl drive?
The only way I can think to test that is to jack up one front wheel and put the lever in 2whl drive. The wheel should turn. Put the lever in 4whl drive and the wheel should not turn. If you have lockout hubs they need to be locked to do the test.
Driving it on the road to test is not a reliable way to do that.
I still think your just hearing gear whine and rumble from worn gears. I wish a fellow CJ2 or 3 owner could drive or ride and listen to it.
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When you jack up one end of the jeep only turn the road wheel BY HAND....
Do not start it !!! Ouch!
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With the TC in 4 wheel drive with all 4 tires on the ground you will not be able to turn the front drive shaft by hand. In 2 wheel drive you will be able to turn the front drive shaft. In neutral you will be able to turn both drive shafts.
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Correction, my last post should have read with all four tires off the ground for all positions.