My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Quebec Jeep on July 15, 2013, 09:27:31 AM
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I had to used a 12 ton press to remove my front drum from their hub.
I will need to replace all studs now.
Here the question:
Does the stud was only pressed against the hub and the drum or do are they kind of pressed/riveted?
I had one bad hub but now I have two bad drum....
Those stud were the most hard to remove that I've ever seen.
Should I try to find good used drum or should I buy new replacement?
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I'd think I'd want all my drums to have similar wear. But I'm no expert.
I've pulled a grand total of 10 drums in my life, and none needed more than a few taps with a hammer to come loose. And I think only two needed that much--the rest came off by hand. (Hubs are a different story...)
-Paul
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Sorry my english.
I'm taking about the piece that are attach to the drum. The center piece with the wheel bearing and cup in it.
I had one bad. A screw was broken in it and the previous owner just tap bigger thread in it and use a bigger bolt.
So I was not able to install my new dualmatic hub and no way I would drill one bigger hole in it to fit it.
I found one drum with a correct hub. My plan was to remove it and use it with my original drum.
In the second picture, it's hard to see but the hole on the top right is bigger and there still a part of the broken bolt in it.
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Is the bad hole where the locking hub mechanism bolts on?
I'd certainly be replacing that part. I wouldn't think it would matter if it was new or good-quality used.
(I'd send you one, but I'm keeping all my extra parts at least until this project is finished!)
-Paul
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Yes its where the locking hub mechanism bolts on.
So to remove it from the drum, I had to remove the stud.
The drum get damaged. They are now bend.
Is it normal or not to have a lot of difficulty to remove those studs? Are they pressed then riveted?
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Are you talking about the studs that hold the wheels on (the ones with the "R" stamp in your pictures)? Or the ones holding the locking mechanism into the holes in the picture?
I've never removed the wheel studs, but I think they should just be pressed in.
On the four front hubs I've disassembled, the locking mechanism was held on by bolts, not studs. And I didn't have any problems removing them.
On the newer axle I took apart, though, there was a Spicer type front axle shaft, and it has a C-clip at the end. On that one, I had to disassemble the locking mechanism itself to be able to access and remove the clip. But once I did that, everything came apart easily.
-Paul
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Yes the ones with the "R" stamp on it.
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In taking a second look: are those your brake drums behind the hub? Does the wheel stud come through the brake drum from behind?
If so, this is different from either of the front axles I took apart. On mine, the brake drum was in front of the hub plate, and could just slide off, with the hub still on the vehicle.
That's a pretty significant difference. How is it supposed to be done? And what about on the back?
-Paul
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To answer to your questions;
Yes and Yes. I don't know. The back is in the same fashion.
Here is a picture of the back
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A Google search for "swaged wheel studs" resulted in many good forum threads about this..
Here's one with good pictures.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/swaging.htm
And yes, the drums are sandwiched between the stud head and the hub on Pascal's jeep.
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Thanks Bill.
Now the questions is how on a CJ3A the stud should be installed? Do they are normally swaged?
And do my drum,hub and stud are properly installed on my jeep? Is it the "normal" way?
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Hum,..The more I red about it, the more I'm getting anxious.
I ordered to new drum. I should get them tomorrow. I also ordered new studs.
I will inspect my hub carefully and check if they are not damaged.
Should I try to find someone in town who can reinstall them and swage them?
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The earlier jeeps were all installed the way yours are, Pascal. Aftermarket drums and later jeeps are installed on the outside of the hub and simply pop off.
If your new studs install with a fair amount of resistance I wouldn't bother with swaging them. Actually finding someone to do it might be difficult as it is no longer a normal day to day operation for brake work on todays cars.
Take a look at the hub where the bolts were pressed out and see if there is any sign of tearout due to a larger swaged area being forced back thru a smaller hole. If you can rotate the new studs to a point where the knurling does not match the previous bolt's grooves it made in the hub you may still be OK. Some tack weld the studs in if they loosen up but I can't really recommend that option.
Double check those new drums to see if they are the same as your old ones or designed for installation as a slip over the hub deal.
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The studs will come serrated and unless your hub is egg shaped they should press in and hold. I had to spot weld a couple as they did not hold. I used a shop press to remove and install. On the ones that did not hold I pressed in, tighten a lug nut in place to square the stud to the hub and then spot welded in a couple of spots.
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The rear axle on my 3B is the same way. I had a friend press out a broken stud and press in a new one from Walcks that was serrated around its base. As far as your hub with the larger hole, you might have been able to put a 3/8" Helicoil in.
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Here is the results of my research for new drum locally.
First, I had to find someone with old book...
So for an universal jeep 1962 the part number was 80031 and raebestos book it is now 2300. I gave it a try an order those one.
They are bigger then my old one. Also, I do think those one are for the hub to go inside.
And if I put a new one on top of the old, the inner circle is bigger. Does it matter?
They are also quite expensive 85$ +tx.
Does anyone know a replacement part number for those?
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I don't think it matters that the hole is bigger. It may be actually necessary for the hole to be bigger, since the drum now has to fit over the place where the locking mechanism attaches.
-Paul
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The important dimensions are diameter and width of the friction surface A later jeep may have 10 or 11 inch brakes, Measure the width of your present shoes and the diameter of your present drum and make sure the drum is designed for a jeep with that size brakes. As far as the inside hole of the drum, as long as it is large enough to go over your hub you will be fine.
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I bring the backplate (with shoe) with the hub at the store and we fit the drum over it. It does fit perfectly.
The hub will be inside now. The inside hole of the drum fit perfectly with the outside of the hub.
The purpose of the three hole in the new drum is only to screw it to the hub, right? Does it matter if I don't have it? Should I drill and tap three hole in my hub?
I don't fully understand the purpose of it since the drum will make one piece with the hub when the stud will be in place.
Should I need to be worry about the wheels? The drum is bigger than my old one so I hope that my wheels will fit over it.
The overall length dimension should be the same. Having the hub inside or outside should'nt change the length of it. I should'nt be worry about the shaft length, right?
I have until the end of the week to commit to buy it. I will ask them if I can borrow it to try it at home on the jeep with the wheels and dualmatics hub on it. Hope they will agree.
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When everything is new the three flathead screws held the drum on so it didn't fall off during wheel changes. They may also have centered the drum, but if the drum pilots on your hub without a lot of slack you'll be fine.
Older jeeps are often found with those screws missing. Their function is partly duplicated by the wheel and lug nuts. Modern vehicles with drum brakes often use a simple pal nut or sheet metal clip to hold the drum on the hub when the wheel is removed. Those clips often get ruined during a brake job and never replaced.
Good idea to check everything, altho if you brought your wheel along with your hub to the parts store it would be easy to check it out there . Your tread width may increase by the thickness of the drum. Make sure your studs are long enough for the new position.
Pretty much all the drums sold for the older jeeps are this style and nobody seems to have any serious problems with them so I think you will be OK..
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You don't need the screws, as Bill says. Worst case, when you change a tire, the drum comes off with it. But even that's not likely to happen if the brakes are adjusted properly.
-Paul
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Don't worry about the screws. They are not needed. As stated, on modern vehicles the drums or rotors use a PAL nut or screws to hold them onto the backing plates. These are installed primarly to hold them on while they go down the assembly line prior to the wheels being installed. Most of the aftermarket drums/rotors (and even some OE service parts) have these holes deletes and do not reuse the fasteners.
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The guy at the shop was kind enough to let me go with one drum and try it at home.
It work!
So here is the part number for who want it: