My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: dodjh on August 15, 2012, 01:17:45 PM
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Hello....I have read and looked at many threads/posts about my CJ's brake drum removal process.
My Brake Drum is 11" and is a Century Brand. �So far I haven't been able to locate a slot
to remove a Star type (adjusting system) entry point or do I see anchor pins or ecentric bolts.
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These are pictures of my drums...front and rear bottom.
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These are pictures of my drums...front and rear bottom.
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If these were the type w/ anchor pins & ecentric bolts, how do you collapse the shoes if they have created a ridge
on the outer edge of the Drum?
The part that is the anchor pin, do you hold the pin with one wrench and turn the nut with another wrench?
Any help will be appreciated.
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dodjh,
The brake drum you are showing looks odd, but I haven't seen an 11" brake conversion. �
Can you post a better picture of the back side of the backing plate? �The reason I ask is the original 9" brakes will have eccentric adjusters. �I'm not sure if the 11" conversion does.
On 9" brakes, Yes...you hold the pin with a small wrench (1/4" and 5/16") , then loosen the lock nut. �Once loose, you spin the eccentric/pin to loosen the shoe from the drum. �
The rear drums slide over a tapered drive shaft. �Once you remove the outer castle nut, you will almost always have to use a puller to get the drum off. �Especially if it hasn't been removed for a while.
The front drums have a combination of large spindle nuts and washers. �One of the washers will look bent and mangled. �This is normal, as it is designed to be bent over the edge of the nut, to essentially lock the nut into position.
These will have to be removed to get the front drums off.
Front Brake Drum after removing Warn Locker.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/Drum20110711.jpg)
All parts on the front, minus the drum
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drumorder20110711.jpg)
Again, �This description is based on 9" brake. �I have no idea if I'm helping you, or confusing the issue.
Tim �
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Many 11" brake conversions use late CJ components, but from the photos it appears this conversion may have used the early Utility/Truck 11" brakes. These are set up, adjusted and serviced just like the early 9" CJ stuff.
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athawk11...I found the pin and nut, one on each side of each front brake assembly. Bob W is right, it must be from a early utility truck conversion.
I don't have locking hubs yet but do recognize the parts you photographed. If the shoes wore a groove in the drum, how do you suppress them
enough to prevent them from hindering the drum removal?
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Once you loosen the lock nuts, you should be able to turn the eccentric bolts. It's hard to explain, but you will 'FEEL' it go loose when you turn it.
The eccentric is oblong. Much like a 'half an oval.' When the long part of the oval is against the shoe, it will be tight. when the short side of the oval is against the shoe, it will be loose. When you feel it go loose, it backs off the shoe by 3/16 to 1/4". You will need to loosen all points to achieve these measurements.
If a groove in the drum is deeper than that, you may be in trouble. I doubt it will be, but if so, you will have to get a puller and force the drum over the shoes. With all the eccentrics loose, the shoes will have a lot of give. In fact, the shoes will likely come off with the drum. You may break a spring doing this, but that would be a small price to pay.
Tim
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That sounds fairly easy....will try and get the fronts off tomorrow. I guess I've become confused after saturating myself with
all the different threads on Brakes. I was just on the cj2a Forum reading about brake removal. It seems the rears are tougher
than the fronts. Well, they will be next
Thank you for all your help!
Charles
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(http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab191/rocketeer_2010/Jeep/brakeadj.jpg)
Larry
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I think the 11" brakes that Charles has on his Jeep are the type that only have the "Eccentric" adjusters and not the "Anchor Pin" adjusters. On this type the bottom of the brake shoes are free to slide up and down on the lower anchor, eliminating the need for adjustment there. More photos would be necessary to know for sure.
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rocketeer...your picture looks like mine but there isn't any anchor pins on the bottom.
Bob W...I believe you are right.
I will clean up plate better and post some more photographs.
Charles
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HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF THE FRONT BRAKES:
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NUMBER TW0:
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Number three of ?
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Number four 0f eight.
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Number 5 of 8.
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Number 6 of 8.
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Number 7 of 8.
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Number 8 of 8....there has to be a better way of doing this...right?
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They look like Utility series brakes. Just use Tim and Larry's instructions above excepting there are no anchor adjustments at the bottom.
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So the brakes are used on trailers etc. and not specifically designed for use on Jeep vehicles?
Should I cut the eccentric bolts with a torch if they wont loosen up?
I've been trying to free the stud from the bolt and so far it all turns together.
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I think the 11" brakes that Charles has on his Jeep are the type that only have the "Eccentric" adjusters and not the "Anchor Pin" adjusters. On this type the bottom of the brake shoes are free to slide up and down on the lower anchor, eliminating the need for adjustment there. More photos would be necessary to know for sure.
OK, got it. Hard to tell from the photos.
Larry
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So the brakes are used on trailers etc. and not specifically designed for use on Jeep vehicles?
They look like Jeep brakes. Utility series are Wagons and Pickups
Should I cut the eccentric bolts with a torch if they wont loosen up?
Heat from a torch will probably free them up without cutting.
I've been trying to free the stud from the bolt and so far it all turns together. �
As long as the "stud" is turning the adjustment is happening. As you turn the stud rotate the brake drum. You should notice the brake drag changing.
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That will be my weekend project...Thanks Bob.
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I removed drivers side front and these are photos of it:
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Picture two
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Number 3
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Four of Five.
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Number 5
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Last two shots.
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The drum walls are smooth and there is no ridge. There was no lining left on the shoe surface. This renforces
my theroy they dissabled the primary brakes and uses secondary( E-Brake) for main brakiing.
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For any who are following....I removed P. Side F. today and they had lining left.
I think my Drums are fine but does anyone know how much drum thickness is allowable...I guess
miked and where to buy parts from M/C forward. I'll have to do front end first then E-Brake and then rear.
Unless there is a WIND FALL coming I will be approaching the repairs this way.
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Number 2
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Number 3 of 5
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Number 4 of 5
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Last one of this set.
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The Utility service manual states the drums can be cut 0.030" thereby making the maximum diameter 11.060".
I'd give Walcks a call and tell them what you have there, an 11" conversion on a CJ, most likely wagon or truck brakes. Send them these photos. They will know what parts you need..
(http://cj3apage.com/forum-yabb/Attachments/Willys_F_B_P_side_001.JPG)
(http://cj3apage.com/forum-yabb/Attachments/Willys_F_B_P_side_002.JPG)
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Bob....thanks for the advice....I will try and contact them tomorrow.
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dodjh, if the drums are not grooved I would just use them with new shoes and what ever parts you need. You can have them measured if you want to but with standard brakes your not likely to put enough force on the drums to break them. If you have power brakes it's a different story.
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Carl...there aren't any grooves or ridges on the two front drums.
The wheel cylinders are corroded and will need replacing..too much pitting and corrosion powder in them.
Thank you for your advice.
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Update....I phoned Carl Walck and e-mailed him pictures of my front brakes. He said I have station wagon and pick up brakes on my cj3a.
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Hang on tight when you get back on the road with her! An old racers rule used to be the faster you go the more brakes you need!
Your machine must have been pretty fast!!!!! ;)
Dan
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racer1....the gears are pretty low but I will keep your advice in my mind. I haven't driven past 45 or so and that w/o brakes.
When you let off the clutch the gears bring the speed down pretty quick. The PO used it at a deer camp which I wont but will
put some highway miles on it.
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Those are Bendix (Type 11) Self-Centering brakes. They could be found, are you ready for this, on a Hudson. These probably came off of a model 4-63 (Station Wagon) or 6-63 (Station Sedan) Willys if they are 10" or off of a 2-WD (Jeep Truck) or 4-WD (Jeep Truck) if 11".
The info and instructions on the following link should help you out. One important point when replacing the shoes on this type of brake is that the long shoes always face forward
http://home.comcast.net/~sarahdyoung/hudsonjetbrakes.html
(http://home.comcast.net/~sarahdyoung/brakes4.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~sarahdyoung/brakes6.jpg)
Larry
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rocketeer.....just saw your post...I use to get an e-mail when someone replied on a post. I was sitting here at the computer wondering
when I was ever going to get the brakes back on! So since mine are 11" they were used on Jeep 4WD Trucks. Would you know what
year Jeep trucks to focus on. Your reply listed many possible suppliers from NAPA to Kaiser...a Hudson tho, WOW!!
I must have a BUBBA cj3a!!! Thank you for the information!
Charles
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rocketeer...if I told Napa I had Bendix (Type 11) Brakes that were self centering 11", do you think they
would know what type Brake I was referring too? Also, would they know the proper wheel cylinders and M/C
for that system?
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No, they won't be able to tell. If you can't ID the vrhicle they came off of then your best bet is to physically match up the parts. On wheel cylinders you can sometimes luck out in that there may be a number cast into the metal. Walcks should be able to help figure it out for you though.
Larry
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I have talked to Carl and he says he knows which wheel cylinders i need and M/C.
So onward I go...Thank you and everyone for their help!
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I can't post...what happened?
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OK..One hurdle over know how do I post pioctures? I've posted many but can't make it happen.
I even DL YaBBC tool bar!
How do you make the font larger?
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I've been banging my head against a lot of walls lately and know this one.
All I wanted to post was, I received Front Brake parts from Walcks today and the front rubber lines he sent are smaller than what I have now.
Is that a problem?
I took two (2) pictures and cannot get them on this site.
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You should be able to post picture.
Normally with the browse button just below this box.
Let try.
Here is a picture of my brand new dualmatic hubs.
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The picture size should be less then 600 kb. I tryed with a bigger one and it does'nt work.
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QuebecJeep...that must be why I am unable to get them to attach.
How do I enlarge the font...I scroll to 12 or 14 and I just get enclosed brackets with the numbers 12 or 13?
Thanks
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Dod,
When you add those special font [size=24]sizes[/size] and [size=36]colors[/size] in the reply box where you type, it will only show the enclosed brackets and the numbers.
When you have finished your post [size=18]highlight[/size] the word or phrase you want to change, choose the font size or colors and the brackets will show up around your highlighted words. Now, hit the [size=48]preview[/size] button below. Scroll back up, and you will see how your post will look, once you actually post. When you are done [size=20]previewing[/size], hit [size=22]post[/size] and all will be what you hope it to be. ;)
Tim
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Hello to all....I reduced my picture size to 134 and still couldn't attach them. I can't tell you how many times I've written a post and tryed to load
pictures only to have them not show up in the preview or post.
Situation: I'm unable to get the front pumkin brake line from Walcks. It runs from the front brake junction block to the Passenger front tire.
Also, the brake line that runs fron the M/C to the front junction block via a rubber hose line.
I wont need the S loops because of longer front brake hoses recommended by Carl Walck.
I haven't flared or DBL flared any steel brake line in years and what I was flaring, probably wouldn't be called a flare by most of you.
Where can I get the two (2) Lines I need? The person I usually deal with at Napa wasn't in and the person I did deal with, WASN'T IN EITHER.
(No Disrespect intended)
Charles
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Often times when converting to 11" brakes the front line/hose arrangement is modified. Originally there was a single hose going to the axle, then a tee, with hard lines running along the axle to 2 hoses (one to each wheel). The modified version has the hard line from the master cylinder going to a tee, then 2 lines running along the frame to each side above the axle, then a hose on each side going directly to each wheel cylinder.
Most NAPA stores, and any other auto parts store, should stock 3/16" preformed brake lines in various lengths.
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Bob...Thank you for the post....my set up is like that except the hard line from the M/C has a Hose part of the way. The hose attaches to the tee.
So, just take the two (2) lines in and have them match them up. Sounds simple enough.
Will it matter that I'm using Silcone Brake Fluid with the line as far as which line they find?
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Bob...Thank you for the post....my set up is like that except the hard line from the M/C has a Hose part of the way. �The hose attaches to the tee.
Sounds like they used the original axle mounted tee fitting and hose. Ideally the tee fitting would be 3/16" inverted flare on all 3 sides so metal line would fit and there would be no need for a hose.
Will it matter that I'm using Silcone Brake Fluid with the line as far as which line they find? �
The fluid type will not matter when selecting lines.
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Bob...they must have. Today I picked up two (2) lengths of the,"WORKABLE," steel brake line, 40" lengths. One section for the pumkin
line and the other for the M/C to Tee on front axle tube.
Haven't bent any line in a while!
I should be prettty good by the time I finish the back lines!
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On the front brakes, does the long shoe face the front or rear?
Thanks
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I looked and found out that on the 11" shoes, the long shoe always faces forward.
If anyone has a comment, please poat it.
Thanks.
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Does anyone know of a link to show DBL flaring a brake line?
I bought 3/16" line and my old looks like a 1/4".
Also the Hub seal in one Brake Hub is leaking...the Seal # is CR 21101. Is it suppose to be flush with the outer edge of the inside of the drum...not sunk down in?
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This video was helpful for me. I choose this one because he used the same double flare tool I have.
He does a pretty good job of describing the process. It's not difficult to do. It is critical to file the cut smooth as he describes.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=how+to+double+flare+tubing&view=detail&mid=C77A2FAE7663EC7B7A59C77A2FAE7663EC7B7A59&first=0&qpvt=how+to+double+flare+tubing
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Thank you athawk11
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athawk11...that is the first one I picked on Youtube and it played 4 1/2 minutes and stopped. Maybe it will play through this time.
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Well...I have all front shoes, W/C, M/C, all new lines and ready to bleed to remove air.
To adjust the M/C how do I know how far out to extend the rod for the piston in the M/C?
Doesn't the brake pedal adjustment dictate how far to adjust the plunger rod?
Thank You
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Doesn't the brake pedal adjustment dictate how far to adjust the plunger rod?
Thank You
Yes.
Larry
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Thanks Larry!
Charles