My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: dodjh on July 02, 2012, 03:19:50 PM
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Hi...this will be my first post to this web site after just being approved to do so.
Recently I purchased a 49 CJ-3A which has been converted to a 12 V system by the previous owner.
The regulator is not being used and their isn't a generator on board.
It does have a firewall mounted resistor/ballast and points and condenser in the distributor housing.
The ignition wiring looks like spagetti and the floor mounted starter switch is not wired in.
Right know the only way to turn it over is to short the + side of starter solenoid and the wire teminal
that goes to the + side of the coil on the starter soemoid.
If you put gas in the carburetor it will run briefly and then die.
The spark plugs were all fouled and had various gaps so I replaced all of them and gapped them .30.
The starter, coil, starter solenoid are all 12 V.
The points weren't opening until they were gapped at the corner of the lobe which resulted in it running for awhile and then dying.
I have read all the steps to check out the starter, coil, points and condenser, starter solenoid on the CJ-3B
site which is seven (7) printed pages,"Am I Getting Spark".
All this to my question: Starting from the ignition, what wire goes where, to include guage and locations.
Thanks for your help!
dodjh
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dodjh
First off Welcome to the best CJ3A page on the internet, might be the only one but who's counting? Sounds like you have yourself one of the original Bubba Jeeps. These jeeps while great in number, generally started out life as a humble factory original completely up to specification civilian jeep. Some time during there existence they were abducted by the notorious Bubba, who then performed all sorts of mysterous experiments on them, changing wiring, body parts, fundamental operational components and of course the color. I think most of us have rescued a Bubba Jeep in our time. Some would say that is the only configuration left in the universe, however as we struggle to right this wrong we are gaining ground. And as FBill will obviously note at some time " we are all a bit full of _ _ _ _!!"
My suggestion is that you get yourself a Willys Maintenance and Repair Manual, I would also suggest that you contact Bob Westerman, he's on this page and buy a copy of his book on the 3A. These two references will be invaluable as you start the de-bubba process. You've really got two choices here, remove allof the wiring you see and start over with the diagram in the book as your guide, sounds like you've got some extra componenets hanging around that should have been removed. The other option and a more attractive one I imagine is to start to chase the wiring for each system and replace/ repair as neccesary, both will get you there eventually. It also sounds like your not getting gas, thats a whole nother thing to worry about, carb condition, fuel line, tank clean...
Welcome to the club, my jeep is named Triple X, he started like yours and after 3 trys at most everthing we got her in good shape. Welcome to the team, you'll get great advice here from a great bunch of fellow travellers.
Todd
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Thanks Gunslinger for the reply and welcoming me to the CJ3A web site. I did a lot of browsing on the topic "CJ3A" before deciding on this site.
I do need a Maintenance and Repair manual for the Willys CJ3A.
I was doing the latter of your two (2) suggestions and found there is no power to the ignition switch.
The wire from the S terminal on the starter solenoid comes through the firewall and connects to a push button start switch and then to the ignition switch. Decided to join them together, still no juice.
Well I'll get the manuals and go from there.
dodjh
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Look for a KILL switch. It may be a toggle switch that has been put in somewhere under the dash. I know some people have put one in to stop theft.
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Alright, I check that out.
How can I get in touch with Bob Westerman about his CJ3A book?
Thanks
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http://www.cj-3a.com/
This is Bob's page, its the launching site for the forum. Lots of good stuff on this page as well.
Todd
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Thanks Todd.
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Welcome!
Actually my web site is http://www.cj3a.info/
This is the link to my book's web page and you can purchase one from the sources at the bottom...
http://www.cj3a.info/book/index.html
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http://www.cj-3a.com/
This is Bob's page, its the launching site for the forum. �Lots of good stuff on this page as well.
Todd
Actually this is OUR PAGE ......and it is gonna be owned by the members soon! As mentioned above Bob has his own site......http://www.cj3a.info
Confusing, isn't it..... :D ;)
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Not to take away from Bob's book but I've been referencing this page on the cj2a site. Your 3a should be pretty close to this:
http://www.cj-2a.com/oldsite/elec/wiring/index.html
If I'm completely off, I'm sure someone will hit me over the head.
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Bob:
Thanks for filling in the blanks....I couldn't find anything about your book or how to contact you on the first link.
However, I have visited that link on numerous ocassions in my research for information.
I was just thinking before seeing your post....how hard can it be to wire a 1949 CJ3A...its not the Space shuttle or a 2000 model Dodge Ram Truck!
I need to know (excluding headlights, tailights, dash lights, horn) how the Primary and Secondary wiring is layed/mapped out for a 12 V set up.
On the CJ3B page I found one for a 6 V system with a regulator and generator included.
Todd mentioned we had "Bubba jeeps.": is that good or bad? Being from the South that can mean somebody/something that's OK and somebody/something that's not OK.
Thanks,
dodjh
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NoCoWillys.....Thanks for the link...the information (at first glance) looks like what I have been searching for.
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For the ignition system, you need to use your resistor in the wire between the ignition switch and the coil. the other side (usually negative) of the coil goes to the distributor. (you aren't running an electronic ignition, right? they wire slightly differently)....make sure the resistor hasn't broken or burned out. And don't leave your key on with the jeep not running, as it will heat up and burn out your points and coil. Supp;ly the ignition switch with 12V and it should run....I assume you already have the starter circuit down as you mentioned it was running.
That should get it running. To get it charging you will need to look up the charging circuit for the alternator or generator you are using.
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F Bill....is the resistor your referring to, the ballast mounted on the Firewall? If it, is I believe it is wired that way now. Mine has the terminal on the - side of the coil going to the distributor.
On the key, when I have the key on.... for it to turn over I have to short the S terminal on the starter solenoid to the + post on the battery.
I'm wondering if I even need to turn the key on. So if you turn the key on to crank it, when it cranks you turn the key right back off?
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And don't leave your key on with the jeep not running
Had to re-read it to finally understand about the key.
Thanks
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What do you have for an ignition switch?? A key start switch with off, run, and spring loaded start? Or do you have just an on off switch??
In any case you need to wire up that S terminal to some sort of momentary switch hooked to your battery. Either use an universal key start ignition switch or a pushbutton on the dash that takes its power from the ignition switch..
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F Bill...It has a keyed ignition switch that is an off run switch that isn't spring loaded.
One of the wires on that same ignition switch runs to the ammeter and the fuel tank sending unit
The S terminal wire on the starter solenoid runs to the push button starter switch on the dash.
It then runs from the push button switch to the ignition switch.
My test light showed no power to either the push button or the ignition switch.
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Sounds like a possible kill switch between the key and the push button, or a bad wire. �If I understand your description right, I think you might have a few things miswired. �You should have power coming from the battery to the starter relay and then to the ammeter. �From the ammeter, you should have power going to the headlight circuit, horn and to the ignition key. �From the ignition key, power should flow when in the ON position to the fuel sending unit, the push button and the coil. �From the push button to the starter relay. �That way only of the key is turned to ON can you push the push button and turn over the engine. �But, your lights and horn will still work when the key is OFF. �
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The other option is to simplfy the setup and eliminate the push button and go with a more modern key ignition. (maybe less security since few people know about push button start? ::) ) In this case, I'll just describe the ignition circuit and leave out headlights and horn since they would be the same. You would have your main positive line coming from the battery to the starter relay, from there, to the ammeter. From the ammeter, to your key. From the key, one line is for the starter back to the relay to turn over the engine. Another is to the coil. The last one on a 4 wire key is to accessories like a radio. Hope that helps!
As a side note, if you have a radio, I hope you didn't install it like my PO tried to do by cutting holes in the dash for speakers and a head unit with a torch... :'(
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NoCoWillys...that is roughly how it is but there is no starter relay.
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I looked up starter relays and a starter solenoid is the same thing, correct?
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To any one still interested.....I found that my ceramic resistor (on the fire wall) had been comprimised.
Probably why there is no juice to the + side of the coil.
The wiring shows the S terminal on the S. solenoid running to one side of a push button starter switch on the dash and then running to the ignition switch.
I'm in the process of accessing the ammeter wires and the fuel gauge wires.
The ignition switch has two terminals on it.....both are for a one piece female connector with two wires coming out of the same connector.
One is for the fuel gauge and wire to sending unit. The other goes to the ammeter and ??? wire is broke.
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I spent most of the day trying to get a handle on what the wiring was like in the CJ3A. (need a name)
All of the wiring to the gauges is aluminum and most of it has sections of the outer plastic missing..
Someone has redone the wiring from the head light switch forward and back to the single tail light.
Every thing else is rinky dinked. (bet you haven't heard those words in a while.)
I have sketched out how everything is hooked up now but want to go back to orginal minus 6 Volt set up.
The ammeter and fuel gauge was removed today and I think they are OK and can be salvaged.
I did a resistant check on both and they appear to be fine. The push button starter switch will have to be replaced.
"All quite on the Western Front."
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Yea a starter solenoid is the same thing as a relay. Just really big due to the power starters draw. If the ignition switch only has 2 connectors on it, one is + in and the other is the switched output to your devices that need to be on when the key is in the on position. That would be + on the coil, the input on the push button, and to the fuel sending unit. The other connector (that has the broken wire it sounds like) goes to the ammeter to get power.
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NoCoWillys....I'm trying to get a mental picture of how everything should be hooked up before I start to
run the wires.
Should I hook up the floor starter switch when doing the re-wiring?
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What starter and floor switch do you have? If it has a solenoid/relay operated starter, chances are it is no longer set up for a foot operated starter, and the relay operated ones are a little more reliable in my experience.
I've been on the road all day, sounds like you got a bunch more done that I did ! 8-)
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F Bill....I made progress in tearing stuff down but it always takes a lot longer to put it back together.
I'm not sure about the type floor switch I have. I do have have the solenoid/ relay operated starter now.
The starter only has one wire going to it.... #2 size from the negative side of the starter relay.
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Unless you are going for a full by the book restore, keep the starter solenoid system. Is your relay/solenoid a ford style plastic relay with a metal mounting bracket, two large studs for the battery cables, and two small connectors for the start and Ignition wires? Or do you just have a S connection and teh two large terminals?
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F Bill... its more like the Ford style but only the S connector is bing used.
Doesn't the I side if hooked up reduces the voltage back down after cranking?
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You might google "Hooking up a Ford Starter solenoid" but If I remember correctly the I terminal actually bypasses the resistor while cranking, so you get a hotter spark while cranking ...I beleive it would hook to either the distributor side of your resistor or directly to the coil. Check out a Ford Pinto wiring diagram if you can find one... They were pretty simple in the wiring department and used that solenoid. Or you could ignore the IG terminal completely and just run the resistor all the time.
I have a great how to electrical book at the house but any older Motor's manual (your local library should have a few) will have a section on the starter circuits for different makes, and you should find what you need to know about the Ford setup there.. I have a feeling that by the time I get home to where my book is you will already be driving your jeep!
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Now thats what I'm talking about! Just don't drive too fast and be safe.
I'll check out Ford Starter Solenoids and the Pinto wiring diagram.
I believe the way you described the function of the I terminal is exactly right! I could hear some bells ringing in my head.
Thanks,
dodjh
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HAPPY 4TH OF JULY TO EVERYONE!
I was routing the new wiring in my mind and came to a fork in the road, to make sure my gauges light up,
(not sure if they were before or not) do I run a jumper wire from one gauge to the other and then tie them in
with the ignition. Ummm just thought of something.....I don't want them to light up unless my head or running lights are on.
So to answer my own question, I need to tie them in with my independent head and tail light system and run a jumper from one to the other for them to have juice...right?
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Your dash light, or the lights in aftermarket gauges should be wired in off the light switch.
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I'm going to try and use the same gauges (don't know if they're orginal or A.M) which look old.
If they are 6 volt gauges, will I need to change them?
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I'm sure the oil and temperature gauges would be fine since they are mechanical. If yours aren't, then it may take a little more digging. I think the ammeter would be OK, maybe someone else here could chime in on that part. If you are now doing the conversion to 12 volt then your will likely need to change out your fuel gauge.
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NoCoWillys.... it was converted to 12 Volt by a previous owner. My oil and Temp are already mechanical.
I have to figure out the gauges of the wiring to all the components.
There is a link I read about that...it may have been on the CJ2A.
Thanks for your input.
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HI...had a question about ballast resistors...mine has the thermal type (wires esposed) but their is a non
thermal type (wires concealed.) They have different ohms reading for checking them but which one should
be used on the CJ3A?
Thanks
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You need to use the ballast resistor that matches the ignition coil. What is the original application for the ignition coil?
I'd just use an early CJ-5 12V coil so no ballast resistor is necessary.
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Bob W....so the wire that would go from ignition switch to ceramic ballast resistor would go straight to
the +engine coil?
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I need to specify that I wil continually need help while doing this phase of the restoration.
There are a lot of old bareless wires that have to be run down and determine if they are necessary.
I wish some one had a wiring diagram of a CJ3A with a 6 Volt starter and a 12 Volt battery with
wires going to Battery, starter solenoid, alternator, ammeter, push start switch, coil, fuel tank and distributor.
Not to forget the ceramic ballist resistor in thermal or non thermal mode. Things work out better for me when
I can see what the finished picture looks like.
I still don't know why the starter solenoid has to be shorted sccross the + side lug and the S terminal.
Any additional help will be greatly appreciated.
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Bob W....so the wire that would go from ignition switch to ceramic ballast resistor would go straight to
the +engine coil?
Yes, that is how it would be hooked up.
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I'm still at it and run into stalls due to my lack of knowledge.
How can I tell if my gauges are 6 or 12 volt?
I don't know what the previous owners did to this CJ....but I do know it has a 12 Volt B., a Ceramic Ballast resistor, 12 V coil, alternator and points, rotor cap, Distributor and JC 8C plugs.
If the gauges are orginal, will they light up?
Thanks for any help,
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I don't believe original gages had any bulbs in them to light up.. If you look at the backsides usually the voltage is marked on replacement gages....and if there are bulbs, check them for markings too. Replacement gages are cheap, might just want to put new ones in..
Is there any thing underdash that looks like a drop down resistor to lower the voltage the instruments run on? Otherwise for a 12 volt system you will need a 12 volt Fuel gage and sender EDIT, I see kaiser willys senders work on both 6 and 12 volt so maybe you do not need a 12 volt sender??).. I think the 12 V ammeter and 6 V ammeter are the same but I could be wrong....and the temp and Oil gages were mechanical originally..
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I remember reading, you could use a 6 or 12 volt fuel gauge. �I'll have to look real close under the dash....it has been raining off and on for the last week here and I haven't been able to get much done.
I was just checking out the earlier site that you mentioned at the beginning of "Tech Talk," it would only go back 1,000 posts which was around 2010.
Are you still on the road or shut down for awhile?
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Photos of what you have on your Jeep would help us help you.
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Bob W....Your absolutely right! My thinking, that has prevented it from already being done was/is
how to get pictures of the wires under the dash, then picking them up coming through the firewall.
They are all the same color under the dash but do change colors in the engine compartment.
Tomorrow I will take pictures; thank you for addressing that.
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Hi.....I have photos on desktop but don't see a way to post them.
Anybody Help?
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In the website feedback section of the forum, there is a post named "Posting pictures"
It might help you
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Thanks!
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Is this what you are refferring too?
Thanks!
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It's true that we cannot (at least I just tryed) add a picture with the "browse button" in the tech section of the forum. I never realized it before.
I always used the http link to picture from my website.
So, you can post your pictures on website like photobucket (http://photobucket.com/) and linked it like I do with the button "insert image" and then add the http: link to photobucket website.
It will be a good thing to get fix or added with the new forum software.
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I tryed to copy and paste from the HELP link....when I clicked paste, the word Thanks! came up.
Anyway..I am suppose to find the BROWSE button which I searched for over an hour before deciding
to ask for HELP.
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I was referring to this: http://cj-3a.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1296834876
Normaly when you insert an image, you should get a browse "option".
Let me try it under other forum section.
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Ok go see the post under the website feedback section.
I had a picture and a printscreen of the attach/browse button that we don't have when we are in the tech talk section.
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I've been busy uploading pictures on Photobucket...hope this like will send pictures
http://s1166.photobucket.com/upload/albums/dodjh/
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Well Horse sh_ _ !
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Alright lets try this:
http://s1166.photobucket.com/albums/q602/dodjh/#!cpZZ2QQtppZZ16
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Yep! it work.
Wow! What a wire nightmare! It's good to see your pictures. Mine has original wiring harness and I though that it was in bad shape so I bought new one from Walck's.
Now, seeing yours, I think I will keep my original one for a while. It's in better shape then yours. Sorry.
I can't help you with your wiring problem. I have the old push rod starter on mine.
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I typed description under each photograph but can't get them to show up.
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It's a 3A 1949? Right? It's the 2A windshield that confuse me.
I have a 1950. Can you tell me what is your rear axle type? Dana 41 or 44?
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Mine has the push button starter also but not hooked up..I think.
It looks rough I know but the engine has been rebuilt and they started wiring on the headlights and at some point decided to buy a,"BAD BOY," 4 wheeler....8K to 10K.
Well...I would read posts and think I understood and go out and look at that mess and go blank.
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The windshield, and jeep were made during the transition from the CJ2A to the CJ3A.
The research I have read said you might have a 49 or early 50 CJ3A with the split windshield.
The rear is the Dana 44. I don't know if I dare try and post a picture of the RG&P cover.
Just went and looked at the cover again.
The design on the cover is not circular and has 10 bolts.
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dodjh,
Wow, looked at the pics and man I've never seen a mess like that before. I hate to say it but it looks like you have multiple iterations of fix, re-fix and do over sitting under that hood. My suggestion is that you "snip it and rip it". Get all of that bad wire out of there, then identify each of the components that you have and decide which is needed to work with which. You've got a single wire alternator, and a voltage regualtor, they don't go together. You can get rid of the ballast resistor by buying a coil with an internal resistor. Decide if you are going 12 or 6 volts, I'd say you decided on 12 if you're staying with the alternator. Then pull the gages an build your wiring harness on the back of a cardboard. You will save yourself a ton of anguish.
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Gunslinger....is my alternator considered single wire due to the jumper wire from Batt, terminal on Alt. going to the post/stud on it also?
I'm having trouble figuring out on what side of: the ignition switch (which is on/off), the ammeter, the fuel gauge, and starter solenoid to connect each wire, left side or right side.
I did get a coil with a built in resistor...so I removed the ceramic ballast resistor.
The current ignition swith has wires on the left side and some wires on the right side (which is on/off style switch.)
The alternator is confusing because it has a two wire feed plastic plug and a post/ stud that has wires to it also.
One of those wires on the plastic two wire plug, is a jumper to the post/stud on the alternator.
Also, I know I should put in fuseble links in specific locations, but have tryed to draw it all out and always run into a snag.
There's not that much to wire but I'm still looking at diagrams and rereading all the replys on this post.
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http://www.cj-2a.com/oldsite/elec/wiring/index.html
Check this again, your alternator conversion sounds like it is the one to the far right of the next to last drawing.
Then look at the drawing immediately above the charging system drawing, and note that Sean states that even with the key off, the starter, lights, and horn still operate.
What that means for you is with a two terminal ignition switch, one terminal is always hot with voltage. That is the terminal your starter , horn, ammeter, and lights all hook to. �The other terminal, the switched one, is the one your ignition circuit is built to connect to, so that when you turn the key on, you have ignition, and when you turn it off, it is no longer fireing and the engine dies. � You will still need some sort of starter switch to activate your starter solenoid when you use the two terminal ignition.
What does your ignition switch look like again? And what are you using the fusible links for? If you are using them as fuses to protect wiring, just use fuse holders and fuses. If you are using a fusible link as an ignition resistor, it would go in the wiring between the ignition switch and the coil, and it must be natched to the coil .....
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F Bill...it does look like the alternator set up on the far right.
My ignition swith has two male blades to attach too. Each has a female connector with two wires
piggy backed to them. The left side (switch off) has a third wire coming off of it also.
The fusible links were additions I read about that should be in your circuitry.
I wasn't intentionally using them for an ignition resistor.
I do have a push button to engage the starter with ignition key on.
Also, I use to get a notification when I had a response to a thread but aren't getting them now. Do I need to
edit my profile?
Thanks
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Well.....I guess I've rode this horse to the ground.
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Checking notification for replies....
It sounds like you have a two terminal switch with multiconnectors on each terminal? Pics would help.
The notification thing I beleive you have to click the box for notification after your last post....and once you have been notified there are new posts, you won't get any more emails until you go back and read the thread...At least that is how it is supposed to work..
THe problem with using Fusible links in your wiring is that when they do fail or burn up because of a short, you will need to rewire in new ones. A Heavy duty fuse/circuit breaker is easier to replace... If you insulate all metal panels the wire goes thru, with a grommet, and clamp the harness well with insulated clamps, only component failure should cause a short or heavy load.
There is a pretty good book out there about how to wire up your hot rod, or something similar...It might be worth it for ya to find it and have a good read...just remember that it is a simple jeep and won't have quite all the circuits a fuel injected computer controlled rod would have.
The suggestion to mock up your dash is a good one.. The other thing you can do...figure out where your wires are eventually going to run, and make a fake harness in your jeep using clothesline or similar. Tie tags on it or mark it somehow what exactly hooks up at each termination point. Then, you can pull the rope wiring harness back out of your jeep, and nail it to a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood. Use the nailed down pattern to run your new wiring harness wires along as you build it. Use colors and gages for your wires that match your diagram, but don't put the end terminals on until you have installed the harness in the jeep and you know exactly how long to make the individual wires.
Dead horse beating session over....lol.
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F Bill....Thank you for the feed back.....I will try to locate a book like you suggested.
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I started wiring the ignition switch, ammeter, push button start, coil and wires going to starter solenoid.
On this page: http://www.cj-2a.com/oldsite/elec/wiring/index.html the Schematic Reoresentation,
is the switch before the starter, the starter solenoid?
I went from ammeter to Pos. lug on solenoid feeding the battery and the S terminal to the start push button
on the dash and then to the off side of the ignition switch. The coil wire goes from the on position of ignition
switch to the + side of the built in resistor 12 V coil.
The new starter solenoid has plastic for the ears for connecting to fender.
Wont I need to come of that type solenoid to the fender to ground it properly?
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Why wont a 16G wire running from the "S" terminal on the SS (starter solenoid) then to one side of my
starter push button and the other side of push button going to off side of "on/off" ignition switch (which
should always be HOT) then a 12G wire running from ON side of (IS) (ignition switch) to Ammeter.
Then a 12G wire running from other side of Ammeter to POS. lug on SS, activate my starter? (this lug goes
to POS post on Batt.
The only way with this set up to turn the starter, is run a 12G wire from POS post on Battery to the single
post on the Starter.
The single post on the Starter(which is on top in the middle of it) has a cable running from it to the
opposite side of SS on big lug on the side.
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Well....the problem was the brand new push button switch....got another new one, and she turned right over!