My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Comanche_County on April 03, 2012, 12:23:37 PM
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I spent the last two days trying to figure out why the 50' wouldn't run well. �After fiddling with the timing, which was way off, cleaning and testing every bit of the ignition, testing three different carbs on it, and killing a battery trying to start it, I finally figured out that the recently new plugs I bought for it were all fouled. �Probably a result of too much starter fluid.
Its still 6 volt. �What stock style plugs do you guys recommend? �I think it has 45s on it now.
I've tried all the assorted gizmo spark plugs throughout the years and I always had the best luck with regular autolites. �Just wanna ensure I get the correct plugs, I don't always trust the parts guy's computer.
Also, I'm convinced the coil is weak. �When the plugs were firing, I couldn't even see a spark off the plugs or the wires when grounded, but I could feel it. �I'm assuming I should see a visible spark with a 6v system, am I correct?
My #1 Cylinder TDC is between 1 and 2 o'clock, does that sound about right?
Thanks,
Jay
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I'll take a look at what I'm running in my '53. I like the plugs in it and I think my '49 uses them also. Where are you checking the spark, outside in the bright daylight or in a shop? Just wondering if it is getting bleached out by the sun. You can check a coil using an ohm meter. FWIW, my '49 is still using the original 6v coil.
On my antique engines, I check the spark by feel. Sometimes the plugs don't like to show a good spark and they are very temperamental on plug gap.
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I prefer Champion but Autolite is ok. Tell me why you haven't changed the coil when you suspect it is weak? Please replace the coil and then drive it at 45 mph for about 3-5 miles with new plugs and shut the engine off out of gear and stop and pull a plug and look at the color. It should be a light tan or off white. If it is dark tan or black consider re calibrating your metering rod and/or changing heat range of the plugs.
If your metering rod is correctly adjusted and the color is to dark go to a hotter plug.
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I picked up some Champion J8Cs, also tried another coil but still, no starty. There was black soot on the plugs so its developing a rich environment somehow. Also, when I previously had it starting it would not start unless I choked it off with my palm, once I removed my hand, it usually died right away or it would die as soon as I opened the throttle. I tried two WOs and the Solex, all three did the same thing.
Now, I can't even get it to fire up. Its got fuel, fire, and air. Compression is a bit low, 80, 80, 65, 70. I'm thinking the timing is still off. It was idling great before, and I haven't pulled the distro, so it can't be too far off. Still trying to find the sweet spot.
This is almost as frustrating as my old dual point 65' mustang. The points, cap, rotor, wires, plugs all look okay. I've tried two sets of points/condensers. No joy. >:(
Gonna take the intake off and adjust the valves today, see if that helps. Also, I'm told the stock fuel pump can push too much fuel for a Solex, so I might slap one of my WOs back on.
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If you can't see a spark at those plugs while cranking something is definitely wrong in the ignition. You should be able to see a nice blue spark or even a weak orange one.. You may want to pick oup one of those spark testers that looks like a plug with a ground clamp on it.. I would suspect , in order, oily film on the points, point gap, condensor, coil, and wiring connections or grounded due to bad insulation.
Beautiful jeep troubleshooting weather we are having today, hope you figure it out.
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Gonna take the intake off and adjust the valves today, see if that helps. �Also, I'm told the stock fuel pump can push too much fuel for a Solex, so I might slap one of my WOs back on. �
STOP! Do not go off on tangents or you will only make the problem worse. Adjusting the valves will not solve a hard starting problem.
First, get that crap Solex off of there.
Second, you say you have to choke it with your hand to get it to start; doesn't the manual choke work?
Third, the coatings you're getting on the plugs indicate flooding. That happens when it's getting fuel but no spark.
Disconnect one plug wire and connect it to a loose spark plug. Make sure the spark plug is grounded. Crank the engine and watch for spark jump across the plug gap. It should snap and be blue-orange. If not then you have a problem with the ignition system.
If there's a problem with the ignition system then the next thing to check would be spark at the points. Remove the distributer cap and rotor, turn on the ignition, and crank the engine watching for spark across the points. Again, it should snap and be blue-orange. If it is then the problem is the rotor, or the cap, or the plug wires. If the points are gapped correctly but there's no spark then the problem is either the coil or the hot lead to the coil. If the coil is weak then it needs to be replaced.
To test the coil, providing there's a good spark at the points, put the rotor and cap back on the dissy, remove the coil wire from the middle of the dissy cap and make sure the loose end is within a 1/2" of the block. Now turn on the ignition and crank the engine. That coil wire should snap and spark to ground. If not then either the coil is bad or the hot lead to the coil.
If the coil wire has good spark but there is none at the plugs then it's either the cap or the rotor. Most common problem with the cap is the center contact falls out unnoticed when people have the cap off to adjust/replace the points.
If you try these in order you will find the source of the problem.
Let us know what you find.
Larry
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The capacitor could be bad.
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I'd like to add to Larry's point about the distributor cap. Some of the recent aftermarket caps have bad springs and poorly fitted commutators and the commutator can get stuck up in the cap - so it looks like all is well but the commutator is not contacting the rotor. I typically pull out the commutator (easy to do) and replace the spring with one that is a bit stiffer (spreading one end of it so it stays in the cap and compressing the other end so it stays on the commutator). ..R
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Thanks for the tips fellas! � :)
I bought a shiny new 6v coil, points, and a condenser, and it fired right up. �Could've swore the old pieces were good as I was getting some spark, guess they weren't good enough, anyway, it ran perfect, then we took it out for a test drive (with no brakes) and promptly got a flat tire!!! �We were a few miles out on the back roads and idled it all the way back. �
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7184/6900676420_0f0b34017c_z.jpg)
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Here's a video of it running....http://www.flickr.com/photos/37014918@N07/6902305058/
Larry, I do plan on putting the WO back on, but both of mine need good rebuilds in a bad way, the solex is a temp carb.
I need to rebuild the starter, the 6v battery won't start it, so I start it with a 12v, then sling the 6v back on it. I really don't like doing it, but...
I've read that an 8v battery is an acceptable alternative and works with the 6v generator? Has anyone done that? Pros, cons?
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Glad to hear it's running.
An 8 volt battery is a band-aid. It will only mask the problem. Troubleshoot the starting system and remember, 6 volt starters do not spin as fast as 12 volt starters do but that's normal. The biggest and most common problem with a 6 volt system is the incorrect use of 12 volt cables. Make sure you are using heavy duty 6 volt battery cables and make sure the ground cable between the engine block and the frame is adequate, in place, and has good contact at each end. 6 volt cables are identifiable as being twice as fat (or more) as a 12 volt cable is. It has to handle 1/2 the voltage but twice the current of a 12 volt cable.
Larry
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I have a 12v system with a 6v starter and it does just fine. It turns it over nice and as long as you don't stay on the starter over 20 seconds you should not have a problem.
I think you will like the WO carb better in the long run. Call Walcks and get a NOS rebuild kit. They don't have many left. Also, if you have trouble adjusting the metering rod post it or PM me and I can help you. Pick the carb with the lest wear on the throttle shaft and build it.
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Had the same problem. changed plugs, points, rotor and condenser. started great even with crappy solex. did have a prolem with points loosening up.
Williamsmar
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Mark the area where the points are mounted. Remove them and take a small punch and * the area lightly. That may stop them from sliding. You might try replacing the screws first to see if that works. Another way is to put paper under the points. The screws will still ground the points to the plate. You could also use star washers on the screws.
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Sometimes you might think the points are slipping when in fact the rubbing block is wearing rapidly due to roughness on the cam or a lack of lubrication... If there is an issue with the rubbing block points will close up quickly and start to burn ......
Make sure the cam is polished,clean, and smooth. �Figure out which way the distributor turns, and place a dab of lube on the side of the rubbing block that will tend to pull the grease between the cam and the rubbing block, not away from it. Points often come with a little capsule of points grease that is intended to be used there. A dry cam will actually melt away the plastic in a few thousand miles. Overlubrication can get grease on the point contact surface, which is BAD. �
While we are on the subject of points, a couple more distributor pointers.... ;)
New point sets may come with a thin, invisible protective coating on the contacts. Before installing the points, use a solvent like carb cleaner or laquer thinner to wipe this off. �I use starting fluid, but I do like to live on the dangerous side of things. Ether leaves no residue, however. If you use anything flammable to clean points while installed made darn sure you have all of it ventilated out of there before applying electricity. As a check of the cleanliness you can use a clean piece of paper slid between closed points to see if there is any grunge left there.
Anywhere you have an electrical connection in the distributor, there are insulators to keep the points wire from grounding out. Old wires tend to lose insulation, and thru the distributor connections also can get broken insulators. If you have your distributor out, inspect these areas and replace any bad insulation.
Distributor bushings also get worn over time. Check to see there is not a lot of side to side slop. Major play will cause a varied points gap depending on where the shaft is.. ( A dwell meter will often show this with a varying dwell at idle.) Bushings and shafts can be replaced, or send out the distributor to be rebuilt.
If you have an advance unit on your distributor, check its operation as well. They usually work by rotating the points plate via a vacuum can, or they are a weight thing on the distributor shaft that advances the points cam as the rotational speed gets higher. �Check to see that they move when vad is applied or that you can twist them against the springs, and that they also return to no advance when vac is disconnected or you let go.
Advance units and weights are not normally stock in the 2A and 3A IIRC but may have been swapped in.
End of distributor speech.... 8-) For more info, find a 70's how to tune up your car book. Petersen Publishing had a few good ones back then.
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Well I got it running again today. I took the above advice and replaced the old corroded battery cables with 2-0 or 00 (double ought) cables and added an extra grounding strap from the engine to the tub. I also replaced the condenser again.......and it started right up on 6V! Whoo Hoo!
Then, I took it out on another 10 mile back road test drive, when I got home, it wouldn't start back up on 6V. Bad Jeep, Bad Jeep!!!!!
I'm starting to think my voltage regulator is bad, or for some reason something is burning up condensers. I'm also a little sketchy on the generator's ability to keep up the charge.
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Well, this thread has gone way beyond spark plugs......anyway, I've replaced the points, cap, wires, and plugs again and also narrowed down the timing very well. �It starts ups as soon as you hit the foot switch, ON 6V NO LESS � I added a fuel pressure regulator to the fuel line also. �But the Solex, even with the regulator set at 1 psi, still results in sooty plugs. � It starts and runs great, but I know the soot can take its toll on valves and the rest of the engine. �Anyway, I'm happy to have it running smoothly again. �Even though it has no brakes, I've put at least 50 miles on it lately on the back roads here....Its really fun driving this flatty! �Even with no brakes, I put 10 more miles on it on the rural dirt roads today...Driving this Jeep is just tons of fun! �
I'm going to let this 50' go, so if anyone is interested in it let me know.
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You can install a leaner main jet in your Solex very easily. Most of them come with a #127 jet from the factory as far as I know. Tim and I are running a #112 at 5300 feet, so you might need something in between - maybe a 117 or a 120. You can find them here: http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?name=Solex%20Main%20Jets&cPath=2851
I know you will hear not to run your jeep too lean. My experience is that the jeep will run poorly if you are too lean before you could do any damage. In other words, if the jet is too lean, keep increasing the size until it runs without any hesitation under load. Also, you will need to increase your regulator to 1.5 or 2. At the 1lb. setting you have it at now, it may cut out going around corners or under load. That was my experience.
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You can install a leaner main jet in your Solex very easily. �Most of them come with a #127 jet from the factory as far as I know. �Tim and I are running a #112 at 5300 feet, so you might need something in between - maybe a 117 or a 120. �You can find them here: � � http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?name=Solex%20Main%20Jets&cPath=2851
I know you will hear not to run your jeep too lean. �My experience is that the jeep will run poorly if you are too lean before you could do any damage. �In other words, if the jet is too lean, keep increasing the size until it runs without any hesitation under load. Also, you will need to increase your regulator to 1.5 or 2. �At the 1lb. setting you have it at now, it may cut out going around corners or under load. �That was my experience.
Thanks for the info!
I've got it where it fires up right away now, cold or warm. Even though it doesn't have brakes I've been putting around on the backroads here and except for the nasty growling from the TC, it runs darn near perfect. The plugs are still sooty so it probably does need a different jet. I'm actually going to put this one on CL today, I've got to thin the herd a bit. If it doesn't sell, then I'll be tearing in to the brakes and the T90/TC very soon.