My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: athawk11 on January 08, 2012, 04:24:14 PM
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Through blood, sweat, frustrations and successes, I finally drove my Willys today. �Here it is.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/Willys2012003.jpg)
Here's my problem. � I can't get the temp above about 130 degrees. �
It's pretty cold here in Colorado today, but shouldn't it still warm up to 160 to 180 degrees?
I have a brand new gauge, radiator was flushed clean, brand new 50-50 fluid, �the Harrison heater warms up nicely. �
Tim
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Do you have an infrared temp gun? If so shoot it at the head to see what the temp is. It's not unusual for the temp gauges to be wrong.
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It looks amazing...even at 130 degrees. Nice work!
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Lookin' good, Tim. Can't say why she's running cold but, yes, it should be running between 160-190 even in the winter. I drove mine yesterday and it heated right up even though it is cold out. I've found it will run about 10 degrees lower in the winter than summer, but not 130 in winter.
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Very nice work!
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Hey guys. Thanks for the comments. I don't have an infared gun. I may be able to borrow one from a guy at work. Is is worth changing the thermostat? Could it be stuck open?
I did get the temp gauge from Walcks. I may have gotten a dude, I guess.
The other heat related thing I noticed today is the heat riser, raises, but did not open fully. Only opened about half way. The flapper moves freely open and closed. I only drove it 4-5 miles on a pretty cool day. Warn out spring? The Jeep ran well. A little vibration at 30 MPH. U-joint?
Any and all thoughts are appreciated.
I drove it again tonight. I am so excited to have it back on the road again after almost 2 years. I'm not even freaking out about how dirty I got it while driving on wet slushy roads. Okay, I freaked out a little.
Tim
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Don't fret, the dirt will wash off and Jeeps like to get dirty.
You can try replacing the thermostat but I would check the temp at the head by the thermo housing first.
Is the thermostat new?
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Carl,
The thermostat is not new. �It seemed to warm up fine before the tear down. �(ain't broke don't fix it) � Only thing that changed was a complete flush of the engine block and radiator and a new temp gauge. There were some chunks of garbage that came out of the engine block drain. �Could some of that get stuck in the thermostat?
Any thoughts on the heat riser not raising all the way?
Tim
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Any thoughts on the heat riser not raising all the way?
Is it the original bimetalic spring? Many of the aftermarket springs were not made properly and do not work.
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Bob,
The Willys came to me with no heat riser and the flapper seized. The only thing that was present was the spring and the disc. (Probably because they were rusted solid to the flapper pivot arm.) .
I bought the heat riser complete from a guy on ebay that claimed it was a take off. �Its was very rusty and old looking. �Came with the weight, disc, spring, screw, nut and the small odd shaped washer that locks the weight to the slot in the flapper shaft. �
Once I freed up the flapper, I installed the riser system and applied heat. (short blast of propane torch) �
The spring tightened up and raised the riser. Figured I was good to go. � I do have my old spring. (Someone here convinced me to never throw away old Willys parts.) �I could try the old one and see if it works better.
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As Carl suggested, I borrowed an infared gun from a co-worker.
I took it for a spin and got it nice and warm. �I left the engine running and shot the heat gun in numorous spots on the head. �Toward the fan, 163 degrees. �Toward the rear of the head 175 degrees. �At the thermostat connection, 145 degrees. This is what my connection looks like. �I have a Harrison heater.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/20120110002.jpg)
The Temp gauge read just over 140 degrees and I think it's fine. � The temperature was the same right where the gauge thermostat is installed in the T-pipe. �I believe the gauge would read 170-175 if the temp gauge thermostat was installed in the head and not in the pipe that feeds the Harrison heater.
Here is another glamor shot. �Just for fun
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/20120110003.jpg)
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Tim,
� � �The way your Temp. sending unit is installed may have something to do with your low readings. Here is a pic of my 3A with a Harrison heater. You'll notice the heater is fed from the top of the water pump and returns to the back of the cylinder head. The sending unit is mounted directly into the block.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/14pwmg.jpg)
Matt
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Yep, Matto. I'm thinking you're dead on. This is how the heater was installed when the Willys came to me. I had never messed with old Jeeps before and assumed everything was right. I have seen many photos of heater hoses installed like yours, and only one other done like mine. I considered changing it because the old head connection was sticking so far out that it pushed up against the oil bath filter that I added back to the Jeep. I decided not to re-invent the wheel and just installed the brass elbow and routed the hose down and under the air cleaner.
Again, the head does get to 175 degrees. I think I'm okay there. I'll just have to know that 145 at the gauge means 175 at the head.
Tim
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WOW...THANKS FOR THE EXTRA GLAMOR SHOT. MAY WILL MAKE THREE YEARS WORKING ON MY 3A. MIND POSTING A "BOOTY" PHOTO?
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I would change it back to the factory setup so the gauge reads correctly. That way you will know for sure if it ever over heats by the gauge that you have a REAL problem. My 3A is set up per factory with the Harrison heater and both the heater and the gauge work as they should.
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I agree, re-plumb the hoses as they are supposed to be and your trouble will disappear.
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I think I'm going to take your advice. �I am running out of things to do on the Willys and as a result I am experiencing some withdrawls.
JohnyBravo asked for a booty shot. �When I think 'Booty' I think....
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/WillysRearView2.jpg)
Correct me if Booty is something other than the back side.
Tim
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It looks amazing. Nice work.
Our '53 runs at 180-190 in the summer and I would expect that even in cold weather it would still be around 170.
Sorry I don't know how to fix your problem.
Justin
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Okay jiuyk53, I'll bite...what the heck is with your signature???
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:) Very nice and thank you. �I am using Gamma Goat tail lights on mine also. �Have you priced those things lately?
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I agree with ventport. I would change it back to factory. He's right that even though the difference at 175 is 30 less at the gauge, it could be at 210 degrees and read 155 and without the temperature gun, you'd have now way of knowing til there was steam coming out from under the hood.
Justin
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Thanks to all for posting.
This thread bounced around a little. �My fault.
I am going to run the hose connections to a factory standard. �Does anyone have a good photo of the connection at the back of the head?
JohnyB,
I got the Goats from Saturn Surplus about 8 months ago. �I think I paid around $45.00 each. Not Cheap, but I thought is was worth it to get the look and the visibility.
Dog,
I think he's using keyboard symbols to make a Jeep drawing. �I thinks it's pretty cool.
Tim
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Tim, now I see it! Looks like a Cherokee.
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Yes it's a Cherokee. My daily driver is a 2000 Cherokee Sport.
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Tim,
I hope to get soem pics up today of Triple X, I'll put them in the malarky section, but the connection at the back of the head is just a water valve. Mine looks like it came off the side of the house, I believe its a 1/2 NPT. If you install it when the engine is in the vehicle you may have to take the valve body apart in order to clear the head huts when you screw it in. Use some RTV as thread sealer, then you have to install a barbed hose connection in the valve. Water comes out of the pump, to the heater, then into the back of the head. I used a brass 90 on the waterpump with a barbed hose fitting. Its pretty easy work.
Todd
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Gunslinger, the flow is in the opposite direction of what you said. The water pump builds pressure in the block and head and the water flows from the head to the heater coil then to the suction side of the water pump.
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OK, that makes sense, it seemed a little goofy to have the valve on the back side of the heater.
Thanks Carl.
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I have explored the re-alignment of the heater hose connection. Attached is a photo of where I believe the hose connection should go.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/Heatertoblockconnection.jpg)
I believe I now know why the my heater and gauge are connected the way they are. �The hole for the heater hose would need to be tapped through the head, right? �So, to do it right, I have to pull the head, drill and tap the hole, then install a threaded hose barbed connection. �I'm not thrilled about pulling the head. �I just got this thing all back together and running nice.
Engine and head are original GPW.
Tim
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Yep, that dimple is where it gets drilled and tapped. Army Jeeps don't have heaters, so, yours is not drilled and tapped.
Your only choice is to plumb the heater the way you showed it in your first posts. There is also an electronic temp gauge that is a contact gauge. You epoxy the sender to the head and it gives you the head temp of the engine. Some attach to a head bolt. They are used on racing Karts and other applications.
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Carl,
Not a bad idea. Not that I'm concerned with an accurate restore, but is there an electronic temp gauge that has the right look and size for a CJ dash?
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Nice build hawk, I wouldn't mess with the head either, thats way too nice. How did the Army jeeps hook up their temp gages? I'll bet you could get some help from John at Midwest Military. He's a great guy, I go to hisshop often just to smell the old Army warehouse smells. Midwestmilitary.net.
Todd
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I don't know athawk, you will have to search but you can do an under panel mount so it can be removed if not needed.
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That is one nice looking Jeep...
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I don't see a problem drilling and tapping it with the head on the engine. Use a magnet to clean up the metal chips that fall into the water jacket. It's not like the metal chips are going into the engine oil, it's just the water jacket. Just as long as you have enough room to do the work with out hitting the firewall.
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I don't either but he may not be comfortable doing it. He would need an angle head drill and a stub drill bit and a pipe tap and magnet to stick in the hole.
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Its really tough to work on that part of the head without pulling the motor, its right under the hood hinge, no direct access. I think I'd be tempted to wait until I needed to pull the motor and do the change then.
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Ohhhh boy. This is just a bit discouraging. I wish I would have explored the heater issue before I put it all back together. Hopefully, Gun didn't curse me with all the "pulling the engine" talk. (Just kidding).
I suppose I could barrow a 90 degree drillto get in there, but I think I will wait until an overhaul is due on the block. I didn't tear it open during the re-furb as it ran very nice prior to taking the Jeep apart.
You live, you learn.
Tim
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Hey Tim, are you sure you really want/need a heater? You and I are in the same neighborhood. A fair amount of engine heat will get to you anyway and is it likely that you'll be driving your jeep below say, 45 degrees or so? I'm sure you've thought about this, but if it is a fair-weather type of driver, maybe a heater isn't too necessary. Just my 2 cents.
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Tom...Dog,
I have thought about that. And you are right. I will almost never drive during cold weather. It was with the Jeep and thought it was kind of cool. I thought about those cold mountain mornings during the summertime trips and decided to stick it back in. Plus, once I faught it back under the dash lip, there was no turning back. Thats a real PITA.
Also, I did get your email. Thanks for the adjustment tips on the Solex carb. I will mess with them this weekend.
Tim
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Tim, I use my Jeep year round but we don't have bad snows or very cold temps. I have a heater in my Jeep but it's not connected and I found I don't really need it for the short winter runs to the store. If I were you I'd leave the heater in the Jeep and not hook it up.
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Hey Tom,
The curse was lifted when I added the full flow oil system, no worries buddy, you'll be fine! ;D
I understand that the boys in the 101 would pull the Master Cylinder cover in the winter in order to get heat off the engine and exhuast pipe as they didn't have heaters in the willys either. Might be an option on those cooler mornings.
Todd