My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: athawk11 on July 11, 2011, 04:39:25 PM
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Hi Guys...
Just read the last hub topic with interest. �This is a different issue, so I didn't want to highjack that post. �CJ3A which likely has the original "Warn" locking hubs. �
This is my first time taking the drums and backing plate off to prepair for cleaning, paint, new cylinder kits, shoes, etc.
I started with the driver side and was surprised by a few things. �First off, was the Warn hub. Easy. �Next was the spindle nut and large washer/spacer. Easy, as I had the spindle nut tool. �Slipped on my puller to remove the drum but it wouldn't come off. �Looked inside the grease filled cavity to find a second spindle nut and large washer/spacer. �I figure this may be holding the drum on, so I removed them and the drum slipped right off....along with a well greased wheel bearing that sits on the outside of the drum. �So now, I'm a little amased at how much need to be dis-assembled just to remove a drum. Figure I'll repack the bearing while it's out.
Next, I noticed the splined shaft inside the axle housing had about a 1/2" of in/out play. That just doesn't seem right, so I took the 6 bolts off the backing plate which also holds the housing for the outer axle. I slipped off the backing plate and the axle housing and the splined shaft sagged down. �The shaft moves freely in a circular pattern, but also moves in and out that 1/2". �There was a ton of heavy grease inside so it was hard to see if the there was a problem with the knuckle on the other end of the spline shaft. �
I got nervous, so I put it all back together and walked away. (I often disassemble then reassemble stuff to become familiar with things and also to avoid forgetting how it comes back together. �It adds a lot of time to the process, but it works for me.)
Do I have a problem? �For the record, everything including 4 wheel drive worked fine before my restoration.
Tim
� �
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We really need to know what type of joints are in your axle. Over the years there were at least 4 different types of joints available in the front axle and so your Jeep could have ended up with any of them from previous repairs. Most likely it will have Bendix joints. 1/2" seems like a lot of end play for any possible combination of components. When you pull it apart again check to see if there is a clip on the end of the axle shaft, a nut on the end of the axle shaft, a thrust washer in the end of the axle tube, a shoulder on the spindle bushing and what type of joint is on the axle. Keep in mind you could have different stuff on both sides.
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Bob, �I couldn't answer your questions. �I am not up on the Willys axle lingo yet, so I took some photos.
Can you take a look? �Again, the 1/2" in/out play is my concern.
Sorry about the size of the photos. �Can't figure out how to shrink them.
The second photo shows the order the items came off. �The large washer is mangled. �PO may have bent it over to lock the outer spindle nut in place. �Not sure that is required.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/Drum20110711.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drumorder20110711.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drum20110711axle.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drum20110711axleapart.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drum20110711axleclean.jpg)
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That looks like Bendix joint. Your axle is threaded for a nut, how was that addressed with the locking hub installation? Normally outer axle shaft is "bolted" to the drive flange with a nut. This locates the center of the joint at the center of the kingpins. Other designs used other methods to locate the joint. Was there a nut on the end of the axle shaft?
The large washer should be bent over the outside spindle nut to lock it in place.
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The "Warn" locking hub slips over the outer splined shaft. �The hub has matching female splines. �When you turn the knob to 'lock', the splines in the hub lock and don't turn. �When you turn the hub to 'free', the splines in the hub spin freely. The threaded portion of the outer shaft may have a purpose if not used with this Warn hub. �I'm not sure really. �This is my first time opening up a Willys axle. �I only know the thing worked fine before I took it apart.
Bob, there was no nut at the end of the axle shaft. It wouldn't fit into the hub.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/warnhub.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/warnhubbackside.jpg)
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That outer axle shaft is designed to be held in alignment by being bolted to the driving flange. With the Warn hubs installed the original nut was omitted leaving the axle shaft to float and find its own alignment. Lots of Jeeps have been modified like that, apparently with no ill effects. If it were mine I'd install driving flanges and set them up as described in the service manual. There is usually a good reason why the engineers decided to do it the way they did.
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Thanks Bob. �I appreciate your comments and thoughts. �Do you have a photo of a driving flange? �Also, have you any thoughts on the shaft in/out movement? �I did a true measurement tonight and the play is 3/8".
Just trying to work out the mechanics in my mind. �Would you need some play if the axle shaft is under stress...say on a boulder filled trail? �One side of the front axle is compressed on a rock while the other side is in a hole?
Tim
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Okay Bob, I think I understand what you are suggesting now, with regard to how you would set it up. Do away with the Warn hub all together, install the driving flange, nut, cotter pin and cap, right?
Were locking hubs a factory offering or were they always added after the fact?
Tim
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Locking hubs on a CJ-3A were added after the factory.
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I just ran into the same promble with my 1950 CJ-3a with Warn lockers on the front. Large washer behind spindle nut mangled and bent over one side. Both sides look the same. Hubs both came off easily after removing the six bolts (which had been secured with some blue goo). Have ordered a mechanics manual and none of my other books show this configuration....any words of advice??? Thanks,
Debbie
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The large thin washer should be bent over to lock the nuts in place. They get quite mangled after a couple uses. Just pound it flat and use it again.
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Thanks Bob, thought this might be a "unusual fix" because of not having the right part, etc.
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Hi Debbie.
Right or wrong, my pictured hubs were set up this way and seem to function just fine. �In the future, if I break the Warn hub, I will go to the standard factory hub and flange set up that Bob has suggested. �
As Bob also mentioned, the large washer should be bent over to lock the outer nut from working itself loose. �I found that if you hammer it flat, then put the flattened washer back on, set the outer nut, mark (Sharpie) on the face of the washer where you plan on bending it, take the nut and washer back off and start the bend on the washer. �Just a little. �It will make it easier to get the pry tool in and behind the washer when you are finishing off the install. �
There are rules to setting the proper torque on the inner nut. �I can't remember the exact rules, but you tighten it to seat the bearings, then back it off a 1/4 turn?? � (It's been a while since I worked on my front end.)
There is a lot of really smart people here with great information beyond the manuals. �Come back often.
Tim
P.S. Get the spindle nut wrench if you don't already have it. Totally worth the $10.00
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I believe you tighten the inner nut while rotating the wheel untill you begin to feel resistance then back the nut off 60' or 1 sixth of a turn. Just had mine apart to install Warn hubs and repack wheel bearings. It's also a good idea to replace the inner grease seal while you have it apart.
Matt
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but since we are on the topic...
I guess the washer I found when trying to take apart my hubs were installed "correctly" save for the hatchet job done on the spindle nut.
(http://kurtisfranklin.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/IMG_0433-1024x768.jpg)
But, as I discovered with this forum's help in my last thread, my spindle at least appears to be off of an M-38 instead of a CJ-3A. I ordered a tool last night that I will hopefully have by this weekend. My spindle obviously doesn't have any threads, so I'm assuming this is from a later model? There wasn't a nut on the outside of the drive flange (obviously), but I did notice a little bit of play once it was off. Mostly, the splined shaft would easily be moved even with the spindle nut in place. Is that normal?
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mrman, I suggest you buy four new nuts, and two locking plates. It looks like yours are used up with a chisel. Also buy a socket for the nut. It's money well spent because if you keep the Jeep you will be cleaning, inspecting, repacking the bearings and replacing the seals every year or two.
The normal way to set taper roller bearings is to tighten them to more than hand tight and roll the drum as you do. Then back it off and then tighten the nut by hand until it stops and bend the locking plate over one of the flats on the nut. Tapered roller bearings are not supposed to be very tight but some vehicle makers have torque specs for them. The Willys manual recommends a method similar to what I said above.
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I bought a socket last night, and I was planning on getting a new nut kit as well. I haven't a clue how the previous owner did that to the nut, but a chisel sounds like one possibility.
So if I'm reading your post right, the inner nut is tightened until the hub/drum stops turning and then is backed off, and then the second nut sandwiches the larger washer?
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Wow, looks alot like mine does! Did order a socket this am along with 2 sets of nuts and washers. I also realized that my axle shaft is not threaded on the front like the picture of yours. Is this the Bendix?
I am trying to figure out how to put pictures on here, not doing very well.....
Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
I'm not sure if this is Bendix or not yet, since I haven't been able to get that far on the tear down.
What year is your 3A? Maybe BobW can chime in on when the axles stopped having the threaded ends? I should add that my hubs are also behind the drums, meaning that the drums slide right off without using any special tools.
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Hi Kurtis,
Mine is an EARLY
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Oops....cant hit that button again, mine is an early 1950, S/N 38565. Alot of parts are dated 1949. This is a great way to get help! I have manuals spread out all over but none seem to fit my jeep!
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Mine is slightly later in the 1950 model year (Augustish), but still early enough to have a Dana 41 rear instead of the later Dana 44.
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Hey mine also has the dana 41. Took both housing covers off today and drained the fluid, looks good so far....have back brakes off, along with backing plate. Reading about pulling axle shaft and changing oil seal and bearings...have you done that? Pulling the axle out scares me. Do you still have the 9 inch drums on yours or did you upgrade? I am still pondering that.
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The rear axel had been redone prior to me getting it, so I just changed the fluid and cleaned the outside for paint. I originally decided on going with the 11" drums, but I decided to stick with the 9" drums since I won't drive it much and I already had them.
I just started working on the front axel after finishing the rear. You can see what I came across on http://kurtisfranklin.com if you're interested.
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Wow, that is great that you have been keeping such a detailed record, especially for people like me! I bought a parts jeep also, but have decided it is my next restore instead (mailman says I'm a jeep hoarder).
Did you put new wheel cylinders on or rebuild them? That is my current quandry while awaiting tool/parts for front end. Thanks for the reference site to help me along!
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Hi Debbie, Kurtis,
I too have an Early 50 3A, I don't have the SN with me but it has the Dana 41 and a 2A hood. Debbie, I rebuilt my wheel cylinders and they work fine, the real issue is getting them set right in the first place. I'm contemplating going to a 10 inch brake drum and have some of the parts, haven't moved on that yet for the same reason as Kurtis, the 9 inch seem to work OK for where I drive.
Triple X is done now except for adding some of the extras, rifle rack, and some other goodies, if you guys have any questions feel free to drop a note here or PM me. I find myself here about every day or so.
Todd
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Todd, would love to see some photos of the finished product if you don't mind. How's that rebuilt engine looking (and running)?
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athawk, May I chime in? The sharp edges on the large nut (generally caused by using a chisel to install/remove) should smoothed over before you re-install. They will cut you like a razor and maybe break off and work its way back/forward within the housing and cause other damage.
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Hey Johny,
I have to agree. �I bled plenty of times on the re-do. �I would take it a step further...If my nuts were as chewed up as mrmans, I would do as Carl suggested, �get new nuts and a spindle wrench.
By the way, chime in frequently. �The more thoughts and ideas, the better for all of us.
MrMan, my set up had the same in and out play that you describe. �That's why I started this thread. �It made me nervous and thought I should get some answers here. �Nothing very definitive really came on that issue, but it doesn't seem to affect the performance of my hub/axle. �As Bob mentioned, Warn hubs were not original and this type of modification happened on many Jeeps. �Until someone says this is a very bad thing, I'm living with it.
Tim
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Butchered locknuts are common. It comes from using a hammer and chisel, or screwdriver, to tighten the nut if you didn't have the correct socket. I usually remove them and grind them back in shape with a bench grinder.
Larry