My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Gunslinger on November 27, 2011, 01:33:20 PM
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I just got the motor for Triple X installed and took her for a drive, went 3 miles and it just shut down, no sputter, no cough, nothing. Thought maybe it was electrical, nope. The(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i356/banjo19/Jeep11-30-11019.jpg) oil pump gears stripped out.
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i356/banjo19/Jeep11-30-11018.jpg)
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i356/banjo19/Jeep11-30-11017.jpg)
Two questions, this is a fairly new NOS pump, what caused it? The pump is locked up now, did it lock up and strip the gears? Or did it lock up when the gears stripped and junk got in the pump?
So now what, I need a new pump, what do I buy and most of all, do I need to tear the whole dang thing down again to clean it out? Damn this is getting old... >:(
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For one thing, I would pull the cam to see what the gear on it looks like. Tear the pump down and see if there is metal flakes in it. If so I would pull the engine and pull the crank, flush the oil galleys and brush them out, clean and brush out the oil passages in the crank and anywhere else the oil goes through.
When you got the NOS pump did you take it apart to inspect it??? Maybe you should have. Remember, it may have been setting around for 50 years.
Take nothing for granted, check everything at least once. Write each step down as you do it so you know it was done and you don't have to guess.
Here's the problem, you don't know how much metal went into the galleys as the pump was failing and it would be a crap shoot to assume there is no metal in the oil galleys.
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Gunslinger,
Such terrible luck!
Carl,
If Gunslinger can find the missing teeth (gear pieces) and they can all be accounted for, do you think there is metal particles throughout? Seems like the failure occurred quickly with shutdown happening immediately. That makes me believe everything may have stopped turning before metalic particles would have been made and distributed. Any merit to my way of thinking?
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I should add a couple of things here, when driving we had 60 lbs oil pressure right up to the point it shut down, It shut down so quickly I thought it was electrical, which it sort of was since the distributor quit turning. Also we has re-done the lube system on this one so that the oil goes from the pump to a full flow oil filter, then down to the number one bearing and the oil galley, so all the oil in the galley has to come from the oil filter first. Also when I pulled the pump, its still locked up tight, so I'm hoping to find teeth in the pump.
Calvin, I'm not going to Vegas anytime soon, not with this luck!!!
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Ahh yes, with the full flow filter your safe. I'm pretty sure the filter element will have some metal in it. Cut the filter open and spread the element out and look at it closely under good light and magnifying glass. There is a posibility the pump over heated and locked up so fast it didn't have time to wear off metal.
Take the pump apart and inspect it for metal shavings and damage.
I did a lot of engine failure trouble shooting when I was a diesel mechanic and it's surprising what can happen real fast.
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Calvin, it's kind of a crap shoot without a full flow filter. The pump won't fail suddenly, it will start overheating because of tight fits and as it heats and the parts swell they will rub off particles that go into the oil and then the galleys and then the bearings. One bad thing about the cam in these engines is there is only one bushing and the others are cast iron to steel. Cast iron to steel wears well but when you insert metal particles things go crazy and a lock up or severe damage can happen.
The particles may not be big enough to lock up the crank and rod bearings but they sure will do damage before they work their way out. Or they may embed in the bearing surface and cause a failure down the road.
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Carl,
Thanks for walking us through that explanation. We are lucky to have you on board here. If the oil pump had not been NOS I would have thought it was just a pump made of junk steel/components and a failure of the driven gear would be no surprise. But, with NOS you would not expect that.
Gunslinger,
Once again, so sorry to hear of your problem. After completion of my project my overhauled engine ran less than 3 months before giving up. I know of another member that had a similar problem. Both engines were redone the first season. However, 3 months is better than 3 miles. Wish you well. And keep us informed on how you overcome this hurdle. We're all pulling for you.
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Hey Guys, took my oil pump to the engine guy this morning, we took it apart and there were no metal pieces or junk of any kind in the pump, but catch this, when I took it to him it was locked up solid, we pulled the cap and boom, it was totally free, put the cap back on and as you tightened it up, you could feel the load being applied to the pump from tightenting the cover.
Apparently what happened was this; we put in a new OP gasket from the Felpro kit for this engine, when installed the pump was lubed and the cover tightened to spec. All was loose as the engine warmed up to operating temp, the gasket must have crushed, thus tightening up the pump and causing the drag that took out the gear. Going home tonight to find those teeth, gotta be in the pan.
Carl, I'll take a looka that filter as well, I think we should find some small stuff in there that made it through the screen. Glad I put that full flow filter on!!!
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It's sounding good so far. I went to the pole barn and looked at a short block with the lube pump in it. I didn't remember the pump was there and told Calvin I didn't have a pump but I do. Anyway, if any teeth came off the cam they will be in the pan also. I would get a bright light and mirror and inspect the cam gear real close. It will be time well spent. If there is any sign of tooth damage I would pull the cam.
Now as to the pump. If the pump rotor, housing and cover plate shows no sign of wear or galling anywhere on the housing or rotors I would clean everything up real good and use it.
The manual says to check for correct clearance put the cover on without the gasket and gently tighten the bolts as you check to see if the shaft will turn. When the bolts are tight to specs the shaft should not turn. They say there should be at least .004" clearance between the cover and rotors and that implies the gasket is only .004" thick after assembly.
If you have to buy a new pump pull the cover and check the pump without the gasket and it should lock up. Now, make a shim gasket .004" thick and try it. If it turns free then seal the cover and shim with RTV and install it.
If you don't have a copy of Willys Mechanic's Manual for Willys Utility Vehicles from 1946 to 1953 with a brown cover you need one. You can buy it on the internet and from many of the Jeep parts suppliers. It is worth at least $1000 for the info in it and the pump is explained in detail.
I don't know why anyone that owns one of these Jeeps doesn't have a copy as well as other manuals related to our Jeeps.
If you want a copy of the page with the pump info I can email it to you, just PM me with your email address.
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Thanks Carl, I've got the Universal Jeep Manaul and a 1953 Motors Manual, both are real life lines, so here's the update.
I had an extra pump here at the house, so I took that to my engine guy to check out. I had put an NOS gasket on that pump, we measured it to .006. I dropped the pan tonight and found all three missing teeth in the oil pan, then I pulled the beraing cap on Number 1 Rod as that is the first one to get oil now with the FF filter, no damage what so ever, put it back on and retourqued. Took a long look at the cam gear, looking up from the oil pump hole was the only way to see it, but it looked good, no damage. My engine guy said that 99 out of 100 times the pump will take the beating and the cam will be OK, he called that one. He builds motors for the Sprint Cup series so he sees some damaged motors. Anyway, re timed it and installed the pump, and she runs !!! uuuhhhh Raahhhh! 60 lbs pressure at idle and at 2000 rpm at 180 F. I'll disect that oil filter in a day or so and let you know what I find, but I'm thinking that may have saved my bacon.
Got her all put back together tonight, going to let the silicon sealant dry till Tuesday before I test drive it. Thanks for the help guys, Its been a battle but I'm hoping this one is in the done pile. Appreciate all the help
Todd
Oh, I'll post the Full Flow Oil filter parts, photos and description in the modifications area, hope to have it done tonight.
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Really good news. Looks like you dodged a bullet on that one. Happy Jeepin'.
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Thanks Calvin, really thinking about Moab next year, hope that invite is still open.
Todd
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Gunslinger, let me know when your going to Moab, I'll try to join you. It's best out there in September.
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Sounds good
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Glad you solved your problem without a full tear down. Will be watching for the full flow pictures, as that sounds like a good update for my 3A. Brian
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Gunslinger put a thread about that in the Mod section, you can see it now.
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I've got that detailed on the modifications page.
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Thanks Calvin, really thinking about Moab next year, hope that invite is still open.
Todd
The invite still stands. Carl's right, the weather was great the last week of Sept when he came this year. Bob W came in August. The weather was clear and dry but quite warm. Lets start thinking of a date and then open it up again to any that might want to come.
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It's been a while since i last posted. Lost living arraignment, job, had major surgery and to top that off Jeep is in a storage place.
Glad to hear that the damage was confined to only a few lost teeth ;D. I'd like to comment on using RTV as a sealant, i've lost a few motors in the past from tiny bits of RTV clogging oil passages that came loose from use. So all i'm saying is to be very careful on how much you apply. That said i switched over to Permatex 2 non hardening or Hylomar for internal sealants.
Always good to hear a Willys driver over coming those nagging little details thrown in the path of life!!!
"Just like a Willys in 4wd" � Greatful Dead
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Thanks Redrock, I hope the worm turns in you're favor soon. Sorry to hear about the woes. It'll get better.
Todd
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I've got that detailed on the modifications page.
When you get a chance, I asked a question on the modification page.
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Good question, I'll check with my engine guy and post it tommorow on the mod page, I know that the oil does not flow through the galley like it did from the factory, 100 % goes from the pump to the filter, I do not think we had to plug anything, but I'm not sure how that worked. I thought about it but never asked. I'll check and post it on that page cause I'm sure others are wondering too.
Todd
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Talked to the builder Vent and yes he did plug the channel inside the oil pump mounting base on the block that sent the oil from the pump to the main galley. In other words the factory config. He drilled it out and used a 1/4 pipe plug, but he did say you might get a way with a frost plug. In any case the motor needs to be torn down to do it as the chips are a nightmare waiting to happen.
I'll update the mods section witht his new info.
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I wonder if the plug could be put in the oil pump some how. Then all a person would have to do is mod the pump without drilling the block to get full flow filtering.
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I don't know about that, you might try the G503 and ask for Gopher 4x4, he has an engine in his shop that has been modified for full flow as well. I'm not sure how he did his.