My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Matto on November 27, 2011, 10:18:37 PM
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I posted this on the 3B site because this relates to my 54 3B, but I'm posting it here because after following this site for a few years I know the folks here really know their s--t!
�;)
I Dragged another treasure home today. 1960's era CJ6. I grabbed this to take the Warn locking hubs and drawbar. When I removed the the hubs from the donor Jeep, the drive flange was held on the axel by a snap ring which was grooved into the splines on the axel shaft. The axel shafts on my Jeep have no groove in the shaft, no threads for a nut and no cotterpin. My question is can I just slip the warn drive flange on my shaft or do I have to take everthing apart to have a groove cut in the shaft?
Matt
(http://i41.tinypic.com/296ccoz.jpg)
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Matt,
My 'thought' would be, "If your Jeep had no groove in the axles for a snap ring when used with the solid drive flanges (or what ever you're removing), why would it need a snap ring for use with the Warn hubs you're installing from your donor Jeep?" However, I have learned by sad experience over the years that my logic is sometimes a sad excuse for someones else's education and experience. Hopefully someone else who is an educated and/or experienced member of this site will chime in with their answer to your question.
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When I questioned the axles with a nut and without a nut I was told if there is no nut just install the hubs and you don't need the snap ring. If there is a nut you have to use the nut. I can't remember who I called now.
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Hey Matt,
Included are some photos of my 3A when I took the axle apart. �There was no snap ring. �I posted these photo a while back because I was concerned about the 3/8" in and out travel of the outer axle. �All back together now and the hubs work as they did prior to dis-assembly.
I don't know if these help or not, but what the heck.
Tim
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drumorder20110711.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/warnhubbackside.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/Drum20110711.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drum20110711axle.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drum20110711axleapart.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/drum20110711axleclean.jpg)
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As I understand it the axles with a thread need the nut, the ones with a snap ring don't need the snap ring.
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Thanks for your replies and photos. I took a couple pics to show the situation.
The first photo shows the axle on my Jeep and the second photo is the axle on the donor Jeep. My biggest concern is end play. I've read the info on the Vernco site and it sounds like the type of axle I have has a different type of bushing and needs no shimming. I plan to assemble the hubs and turn the wheels hard left and hard right while their blocked up to see if they bind at all. I thought about putting a hose clamp on the axle to use as a guide and then cutting a groove with a small file but that might be like trying to pick fly * out of pepper while wearing boxing gloves!
Matt
(http://i40.tinypic.com/nme24h.jpg)
This is the axle on my Jeep
(http://i43.tinypic.com/25qqgp2.jpg)
This is the axle the hubs came off of. This is grooved for a snap ring.
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The reason for the nut, clip, and other parts, is for holding the axle universal joint in line with the king pin bearings. Willys used several methods over the years so there are a lot of different components that come into play here. Many times parts are swapped around and sometimes the threaded end of the axles are even cut off for various reasons. The only way to be sure you have it correct is check the axle shaft u-joint type against the other components. There could be a thrust bearing in the end of the axle housing tube. The spindle bushing could have a thrust shoulder or not.
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The only way to be sure you have it correct is check the axle shaft u-joint type against the other components.
Bob W,
� � Please translate your above response to this specific application. �I purchased a pair of new (at least never installed before) Spicer front axles. �They have the groove for a snap ring. �I'm running the solid drive flanges. �Because the groove was there I installed the snap rings, but wasn't sure I needed to do that. �Are the snap rings needed or will the u-joint center itself as needed? And I guess your answer would be the same fur �running locking hubs as well.
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I think the Spicer axle shafts used a shouldered spindle bushing and an outer snap ring to keep the joint centered. If the Jeep originally had different shafts the spindle bushing may not have a thrust surface.
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Bob W,
� � This thread has caused me to do additional self study. �I'm certainly not surprised that the results of my study indicate just what you've said, "The Spicer axle shafts use a shouldered spindle bushing to limit outward travel and an outer shaft snap ring to limit the inward travel." �Because my Jeep's S/N is below 37549 it came with the Rzeppa axles which did not use the shouldered spindle bushing. So, without a shouldered spindle bushing to serve as a thrust surface and limit outward travel, what am I looking at? �What is limiting the outward travel in this case? �How serious is it? I could order the shouldered bushings, go back in and install them in order to limit the axle end-float. What would you suggest?
� � Input from anyone else who has been into this issue and has advice, please chime in. �
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There are a lot of Jeeps out there with the wrong combination of components that seem to be working fine. Since you actually use the 4wd it may be more of an issue, I don't know. I have not confirmed this but suspect the spindles with non-shouldered bushings may not have a flat surface for the shoulder to seat against.
BTW, I see mostly Bendix joints in original front axles. Personally I think the Rzeppa joints are the best. Spicer joints are certainly the easiest to repair because there are no wear surfaces on the shafts and replacement joints are available.
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Bob W,
� � This thread has caused me to do additional self study. �I'm certainly not surprised that the results of my study indicate just what you've said, "The Spicer axle shafts use a shouldered spindle bushing to limit outward travel and an outer shaft snap ring to limit the inward travel." �Because my Jeep's S/N is below 37549 it came with the Rzeppa axles which did not use the shouldered spindle bushing. So, without a shouldered spindle bushing to serve as a thrust surface and limit outward travel, what am I looking at? �What is limiting the outward travel in this case? �How serious is it? I could order the shouldered bushings, go back in and install them in order to limit the axle end-float. What would you suggest?
� � Input from anyone else who has been into this issue and has advice, please chime in. �
As it pertains to this subject Calvin what I have Read is that the earlier Jeeps like you have ,used gaskets under the spindle to space out the end float, I know the Max allowable end float is .088
As Far as a thrust surface ?? Is there a Torrington bearing behind the Rzeppa Joint ?
The min allowable end float would have to look that up again but .015 ???
Now as far as this being critical, well if your axle floats back to far away from the bushing it allows the axle to deflect and wobble, looses support, All that is mentioned in the book is that you want the center line of the wheel joint in line with the king pin bearings, (Trunnion)
But no Thrust surface on the spindle bushing ?? IS the travel limited in the hub area ??
Frank
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There are a lot of Jeeps out there with the wrong combination of components that seem to be working fine. Since you actually use the 4wd it may be more of an issue, I don't know. I have not confirmed this but suspect the spindles with non-shouldered bushings may not have a flat surface for the shoulder to seat against.
BTW, I see mostly Bendix joints in original front axles. Personally I think the Rzeppa joints are the best. Spicer joints are certainly the easiest to repair because there are no wear surfaces on the shafts and replacement joints are available.
"There are a lot of Jeeps out there with the wrong combination of components that seem to be working fine. "
Yep there sure is Bob, and the idea is to gather information and get the right stuff so they work better, with less vibration, wobble, longevity, and general overall vehicle "Feel"
A while back someone thought that the "Death Wobble" deal was just a characteristic of the old Rig, it is not,
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Bob W,
Thanks for your explanation.
Frank,
You asked questions that I have no answer to. Thanks for your input.
�I guess a little knowledge is dangerous. �Looks like it's time to start looking for a couple of shouldered spindle bushings. �I believe my Jeep will have a little surgery during its hibernation period this winter, just to be safe and to learn something. �It will be interesting to see what 3000 miles with Spicer axles and no shouldered spindle bushings has done. �Good or bad, I'll let you know what I find.